Ep 1: Dr Damien Williams on Zero Kingston 2030

Transcription:

[00:00:00] Sponsorship Announcement

[00:00:40] Intro Theme

[00:00:49] Ilana Razbash: Good evening from beautiful Bunurong Country. I'm so grateful to live, work, play, and broadcast live to you on Radio Carrum from this very special part of the world. Welcome to the first ever show of Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. Every week I'll be joined by a new guest to talk about public places and spaces, interesting buildings, their people, and their stories.

[00:01:16] We'll discuss issues important to the Kingston Community, as well as those playing out at state and national level. As I embark upon this new adventure in radio, I'd love to read and share our listener's thoughts as well. You can text the Carrum Radio Studio on 0493 213 831 whilst we're on air or write to me via Instagram @radioarchitecture if you're catching up via podcast.

[00:01:45] Thank you so much for joining me this evening. My name is Ilana Razbash, I'm a practicing architect and local Kingston resident. I'm passionate about public buildings and our civic life together. I'm really excited to introduce my first conversation partner, Dr. Damien Williams, a prize-winning historian, writer, producer, and community organiser.

[00:02:09] He was born in Bunurong Country where he continues to live and work today. Dr. Williams was educated at the University of Melbourne and graduated with a PhD in his history in 2010. His interest in walkability and designing streets for people was heightened after being diagnosed a few years ago with a functional neurological disorder and type1 Narcolepsy.

[00:02:33] These days, he runs a woodworking school in Chelsea and is president of Zero Kingston 2030. Welcome, Damien. Thank you for joining me. 

[00:02:41] Dr. Damien Williams: Thanks very much, Ilana. It's great to be here on your first show. I feel like I should have brought some champagne to christen this as a champagne radio program and I, I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

[00:02:51] Ilana Razbash: Thank you so much. Like a ship on a voyage. 

[00:02:54] Dr. Damien Williams: Yes, very much. 

[00:02:55] Ilana Razbash: Well, I have a first question that I wanna ask all my guests, so your first up, what's your earliest memory of a building or a place? 

[00:03:05] Dr. Damien Williams: It would be the home that we lived in when my family were in the Western district. We lived in Hamilton, which was a major center there in, in the west of Victoria.

[00:03:16] And my dad was a manager with, with Telstra or Telecom Australia as it was when it was still a, a wholly owned government entity, and we drove around in a Commonwealth car with a red Z on the number plate, which I don't think they have anymore. And I had two sisters born there when, when we lived there in the eighties.

[00:03:35] And the house that I probably have my first memories of was, I think the first house that mum and dad actually had a mortgage on. They, they'd lived in several rentals and we'd moved around a lot in that area before they settled on this particular place. And I guess it was a either very early 20th century or, or late 19th century place with a bullnose veranda.

[00:03:57] And I think it had a, a corrugated tin roof. 

[00:04:01] Ilana Razbash: Do you remember the colour? 

[00:04:02] Dr. Damien Williams: I do actually because my, my dad who's someone who'd grown up on the farm and very much used to doing everything himself and prided himself on that undertook the task of stripping the bullnose veranda back and replacing the paint with the heritage stripes.

[00:04:17] So they were cream and, and red. And I remember him saying to me or saying to some people, I was in the presence of sometime after that, that if you didn't know how to swear beforehand, you would certainly know how to swear after restoring a bullnose veranda. 

[00:04:35] Ilana Razbash: What a project. And that probably started your interest perhaps in so many different fields.

[00:04:42] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. I mean, he, he was someone who had done quite well academically. But I think growing up in, in rural Victoria at the time when he and his twin brother, who was also, he's very academically talented. They just didn't have the same sort of opportunities that certainly kids in the city would've had.

[00:05:01] And also I think that they, they both, they both trained as engineers, one mechanical, the other in civil. And so even though dad ended up sort of going down that sort of managerial corporate route, both of them I think were happiest, say under the, under the hood of a car or, you know, pulling something apart and putting it back together again.

[00:05:22] Whether it was a house or an engine or, you know, anything of that type. And when you, I guess are growing up in a family like that, there's a sort of, I would say involuntary apprenticeship that you, you know, are dragged into by virtue of being the assistant. Yeah. 

[00:05:39] Ilana Razbash: And probably an attention and a care to where you are to the land that you're on.

[00:05:44] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. And, and that, that certainly came through from my mum. I mean, the Hamilton Art Gallery, for example, has actually got a really wonderful collection. I mean, in, in the 19th century there were some directors of that gallery who were quite renowned Antiquarians, and so they were really into you know, collecting stories and also objects from indigenous people in that area.

[00:06:08] That's, that's Gunditjmara Country there. But it's, it's not far from Djab Wurrung Country, which is sort of to the north around The Grampians. And then there's other groups and clans, which traditionally would, you know, congregate an area such as Lake Bolac for where there's a, where there's an Eel Festival today, and it's a kind of confluence of various different nations.

[00:06:28] And today, you know, you might be aware there's the World Heritage site to the south of there at at Budj Bim, which is where the the Mount Eccles as the Europeans called it, or, or Budj Bim the volcano erupted several thousand years ago. It cut off the creek, it formed this lake network and then mob there about, it's been dated to at least 7,000 years ago, started engineering the channels using the volcanic rocks and also building stone houses.

[00:06:58] And if you do the walk out there at Budj Bim today, where I used to take students when I was teaching at Monash you can see the, the round shapes of the, the bases of those houses. And they're quite nifty because although they're small, they're very, very strong. So when Europeans first came through on horseback, they could famously put a horse on top of the, the structure and it would still stay up.

[00:07:22] But what's interesting is where the prevailing winds come through from the southwest and obviously quite cold in that part of the world. The entrances to the buildings all face the northeast. So you could still have a fire in there, you could still have, you know, animals and, and people and stuff congregating.

[00:07:35] But there was that level of protection. And I think I mean it's interesting going back to those sorts of places as an adult and, and looking at them afresh. 

[00:07:44] Ilana Razbash: Seeing the ancient wisdom, the ancient sustainability. 

[00:07:47] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:07:48] Ilana Razbash: By default. 

[00:07:49] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Very, very much so. But I think also it, it repositions the history of vernacular housing in this country.

[00:07:56] It takes it back much, much further than perhaps just thinking about a sort of a zero point between, you know indigenous history to, to a point, and then European history beginning. And it provides us with a, a sense of continuity, I think. And maybe this would be something too we could look at in conversation later, but maybe a basis for a, a a more, a more vernacular type of architecture that's more strongly rooted in the country that we are, that we're actually living on in combination with some of those ideas that obviously come from elsewhere. 

[00:08:32] Ilana Razbash: Definitely just for our listeners, vernacular really means something that's representative and shows off where you are as being true to place.

[00:08:40] Dr. Damien Williams: Yep. 

[00:08:41] Ilana Razbash: And there's a very interesting kind of belief theory position that true sustainability more than just solar panels and all least tech things that we need to get right anyway. But more than that is feeling connected to where you are and having a connection to place so that you care about it and you love it.

[00:08:59] And I feel that you've really loved Kingston. You, you are incredibly passionate about this community. So I, I'm interested, how did Zero Kingston 2030 start up? 

[00:09:11] Dr. Damien Williams: It really started towards the end of 2019 when I had been in Ireland actually, and I'd been traveling around the island of Ireland. It was about August, September I'd been in Galway on a day of it was one of the, the worldwide school strikes and there were a whole bunch of kids and, and local people there.

[00:09:33] And, and we got talking to some of the people who assembled, who were from the labor movement. And they were just appalled, I think would be the best way to describe it as about the news reports that they'd seen coming out of Northern New South Wales and Southeast Queensland about the fires that were taking place.

[00:09:49] And I remember one turning to me and saying, isn't this the end of your winter? And I think it was the way that that person posed the question that made it suddenly seem a whole lot less familiar to me, because there's a sense, I think, living in Australia today, in which these growing sorts of extreme events are kind of becoming the background static to our lives, particularly those of us who live in urban areas.

[00:10:21] And they had, I think, been receiving probably a greater volume and possibly better reports of what was happening than Australians were in their own media. And so on returning to Australia, I started to look into, you know, just what were the current sort of plans that we had locally for this sort of stuff.

[00:10:42] And it was clear that there were elements that needed updating and so over that summer began to sort of agitate a bit more with local counsellors and others about, you know, what was the plan, what were you doing? And then basically just, you know, with the help of friends and, and others who we knew in the area, we, we started to gain more traction as that summer became much more of a, of, of a horror show, really.

[00:11:11] That was what shifted the politics, I think before Christmas that year there was sort of a view that, oh, well look, the settings we've got we're pretty right. This is probably only concerning a niche group of people. And then if you recall the scenes on the beach at Mallacoota 

[00:11:27] Ilana Razbash: Yes. 

[00:11:28] Dr. Damien Williams: And, and those sorts of places that, that was, that summer.

[00:11:31] In hindsight, also what makes it even more extraordinary is that it was really only about six or seven weeks after the Mallacoota incident that Covid arrived on our shores. And it's, it's interesting, I think would be one way to put it, to consider what would've happened if there had been overlap. I mean, in that sense, I think a national leader like Scott Morrison was a very lucky man in not having to try and deal with a situation like that.

[00:11:57] But you know, famously he had been approached by emergency leaders from New South Wales three times, you know, over that preceding year saying, listen, prime Minister, you know, there's a need to upgrade the aircraft fleet. We need to do this, we need to do that. And they were rebuffed every time. So once those stories of, of those people's experiences started to come out, I think there was a greater urgency locally.

[00:12:23] And yeah, I mean, it was a, it was an extraordinary effort really, from a lot of people to, to petition council to, to do what it did. Interesting though. 

[00:12:34] Ilana Razbash: What was the petition? 

[00:12:35] Dr. Damien Williams: It was to declare a climate emergency. Yeah. Yeah. So that had started a, at, at what was Moreland now Merri-bek Council, and then other councils in Melbourne started to do it.

[00:12:44] And when you looked at what had been done around the bay Bayside Council had done it in late 2019. And then I think what, what also sort of spurred things along was that Dandenong was preparing to announce on the same night in January, 2020. And so what I've come to appreciate is that councils are in some ways quite risk averse, but at the same time, no one wants to be left behind.

[00:13:08] So you don't want to be seen to be the last ones to move, nor do you necessarily wanna be seen to be the first ones to move, so when your neighbor starts to move and everybody else start to move, then you join in. And that's indeed what happened. And with a bit of work afterwards, during their consultation process, we got a really good plan put together.

[00:13:29] And to their credit, they have invested in, in staff to see this plan through. And so it includes A net zero target for council itself by 2025, and then for the community by 2030. 

[00:13:42] Ilana Razbash: Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And really leading the way in local governments. 

[00:13:48] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, they are now. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that was part of the sell.

[00:13:51] You know, we, we said to them, look, you should be developing something that other communities which are similar can take off the shelf and say, we wanna adopt this as the Kingston Model. 

[00:13:59] Ilana Razbash: And how is your committee going now? How's your group going now after a very difficult few years for any organisation really.

[00:14:06] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Look, I, I think the impression I get from talking to other people who do this kind of work is that, is that Covid really stripped out people's personnel and their energy and anybody in a voluntary organisation of whatever shape or form that was able to do those two first years of the pandemic, where, you know, sitting through those boring zoom meetings and having those issues with disconnection and isolation, all those sorts of things plus I'm sure you know, for larger organisations, there are financial considerations around just not getting people through the gate anymore.

[00:14:41] Were all, were all live questions and, and I've, I've said to people several times, you know, at our meetings and other meetups and things that we shouldn't forget to give ourselves credit for just surviving, I think. So I, I try not to put too much pressure on myself for, you know, things that are late, delayed, you know 

[00:15:03] Ilana Razbash: It's radical and important in many ways, right?

[00:15:05] You have to remember your own sustainability while fighting for sustainability. 

[00:15:09] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. And I mean, we could return to that theme actually about, you know, whether sustainability is sustainable, but there's, there's an important need as you say, to just make sure that you can carry on personally.

[00:15:23] But also I think. When you're involved with a committee of people that's still relatively small about how you work as a group and, and, and look, honestly, I find that to be a challenge. But then again, when I talk to other groups like for example, our sister organisation in Bayside is, is BCCAG, which is the Bayside Climate Crisis Action Group.

[00:15:45] They've been going for about a decade longer. They've probably got about a thousand people on their email list, which is extraordinary. But it's really the same story. It's about half a dozen people on the committee that turn up, that do the work. Everything from putting out the chairs to the PR to, you know, it might be similar to running this station.

[00:16:02] I think any, any small organisation has a very similar story. And that's just the way it goes. 

[00:16:07] Ilana Razbash: Absolutely. And you do a lot of work. You've been incredibly busy. You've been on a recent tour of Austin Maynard Architects developments up north at Park Life and Terrace House. What are your first impressions of those projects?

[00:16:24] Dr. Damien Williams: Look, the first impression was the warmth. I mean, we, we went up to, in Park Life, we went up to the third or fourth floor where, where the architect Ray Dinh has a, has a place there that he and his family live in. And he was kind enough to show us through. And it was a day, a bit like today.

[00:16:42] It was, it was quite chilly and there was a bit of a breeze, and we walked into this apartment and it was just like T-shirt weather. It was, and it was such a lovely warmth too, not a, not a dry warmth like you get with say, central heating. And besides being taken by the book matched recycled timber floorboards, that, that caught my eye.

[00:17:02] He said, he raced up to the back door and said, oh look, it's the door's still open. And it was, it was open about 15cm and 

[00:17:11] Ilana Razbash: Wow. 

[00:17:11] Dr. Damien Williams: The front door, obviously it had been open to let us through. So even in that moment where I assumed there was a breeze that had come through when he opened the front door, the warmth was still there, and then someone said to him, so what, what's the heating in here?

[00:17:25] And just said, there is none. It's a, it's a 9.1 star building. There's no heating and no cooling.

[00:17:31] Ilana Razbash: And no bills. 

[00:17:32] Dr. Damien Williams: No bills, no fossil fuel emissions. They, they don't do that sort of waste of space in terms of individual laundries in each dwelling. So it's a, there's a communal laundry, same with Terrace House.

[00:17:45] And, and that they stressed was something that was done in consultation with those that had formed the community to want to be the residents. And, you know, it's just a very smart use of space. And obviously the technology involved in the, the heat exchange. You know, how these things work. I don't. But the, the fact that it is possible to demonstrate these things now and then watch as other commercial developers that do involve real estate agents and others are now using the same sorts of things as selling points, which before I think they sort of just perhaps dismissed or looked down their nose at or thought it was a, an extra that perhaps wouldn't necessarily meet the market's needs, you know. 

[00:18:33] Ilana Razbash: And it was very brave of first breathe really to test the market with the Nightingale Development Model.

[00:18:39] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:40] Ilana Razbash: And then many others joined, and those developments are by Austin Maynard as also a developer and architect. 

[00:18:47] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:47] Ilana Razbash: That's why they had so much yellow. I can't imagine a commercial developer letting you have so much joyous colour everywhere. But it's amazing. The, the aesthetic is amazing as well.

[00:18:58] When in ways it's a big building. It's a tall building. Remind me, how many stories was it from your visit? 

[00:19:05] Dr. Damien Williams: That's a good question.

[00:19:06] Ilana Razbash: It looks around five in the, 

[00:19:08] Dr. Damien Williams: The Park Life building must be about, oh, maybe that's higher. I think they were, might have been able to go a bit higher. They, they had to knock one story off, which became the sort of rooftop terrace.

[00:19:21] And that's pretty good too, sitting out there, you know, 

[00:19:23] Ilana Razbash: Stunning views. 

[00:19:24] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. In just incredible views really. And, and that was, they were saying, actually that was where Ray and his wife had their wedding. And so there's some lovely photos of, of all the guests, you know, seated on there. 

[00:19:36] Ilana Razbash: Those photos are on the Austin Maynard website as well.

[00:19:38] Dr. Damien Williams: Right. Okay. 

[00:19:38] Ilana Razbash: And all, and all the tech, tech data and all the details about what, what really makes that building function is so amazing. So I really encourage people to actually jump on and have a look at that. But the, that moment that you described in the building, both doors are open, front and back.

[00:19:56] Breathing through. Breezing through, you've got air, but it's warm. 

[00:20:00] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm. 

[00:20:00] Ilana Razbash: And nobody's paying for it. 

[00:20:02] Dr. Damien Williams: No. And, and it's, it's wintertime and it's, as I was describing, it was a, it was a very gentle warmth. And I can only liken it to, excuse me, being in a building, for example, where the, the, the sun, you know, has a, a nice aspect during the wintertime.

[00:20:22] The sort of place that you imagine a cat would wanna call up crawl into a ball and just, you know, go to sleep. That was, it was that kind of cozy warmth. 

[00:20:29] Ilana Razbash: I'm not a cat person, but I hear the very good judges of character. 

[00:20:33] Dr. Damien Williams: I think so, yeah. And, and aspect, evidently so. 

[00:20:37] Ilana Razbash: Exactly right. It's, and it's, it's part of that joy.

[00:20:41] It's not just the colour they use, but also some of the shapes to break up the overall mass of the building, they, they bring in these little pointed roof elements and they dissolve how big the form is. And that's, I think, what people are really worried about sometimes when they hear five story development is going up, but that building mass.

[00:21:02] But it, they've added something that we call fine grain, which basically just means adding enough detail that you don't have this massive wall up against you. 

[00:21:10] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, very much so. And I, and I mean, I guess perhaps further to what we were talking about earlier about vernacular style, it's Colorbond and that to me evokes, you know, things like the, the corrugated iron veranda.

[00:21:25] Colorbond would have to be one of the most well used products in, in building in Australia ever perhaps only rivalled by Hardie's. 

[00:21:33] Ilana Razbash: And it's home to you? 

[00:21:34] Dr. Damien Williams: Yes. 

[00:21:34] Ilana Razbash: As I'm sure it's home to many people. 

[00:21:36] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And, and also, I mean, you think about the sort of the legendary stories of, you know, Bradman for example, practicing his, his art underneath the tank stand and it's a corrugated iron tank stands.

[00:21:46] So the, there's those sorts of functional elements which are brought into it too because there are actually a few of those corrugated iron water tanks on the roof in both places. I think in both places, definitely in Terrace House. And, you know, to me that's, that's evocative of, of seeing those sorts of objects, you know, in other places at earlier times in my life, and I'm sure for others as well.

[00:22:10] Ilana Razbash: And you can have that, you can have those feelings of home in an apartment building in a community. Where everyone knows each other. Everyone knows their neighbors, and they live near where they wanna be. 

[00:22:20] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:22:21] Ilana Razbash: So you had some members from council join you on that tour? 

[00:22:25] Dr. Damien Williams: I did, yes. We really just sort of played matchmaker I was describing it yesterday.

[00:22:30] And so yeah, the, the mayor Hadi Saab came along councilor Chris Hill, the deputy came to and Councillor Steve Staikos, who's been mayor three times and has experience working in the housing association area as, as does Chris. And so we also had the, the general manager for planning and development, Jonathan Guttmann coming along too, and, It was a really good sized group to go through with a couple of other people from from Zero Kingston as well, and to be shown, you know, those places from people who live there.

[00:23:03] So, Sophie Whittakers, who's the general manager for AMA, she lives in Terrace House and was kind enough to show us through her apartment too. And they had a very similar sort of warmth to it. 

[00:23:13] Ilana Razbash: It's very telling, isn't it, when people who worked on the project and there's a number of architects who live inside these buildings, who worked on the project, who have run the project, choose to live in there.

[00:23:23] It's not just something they've fobbed off to the market. I don't know many other buildings. I have heard of a Mirvac development from the nineties, 

[00:23:31] Dr. Damien Williams: Right. 

[00:23:31] Ilana Razbash: In South Yarra

[00:23:32] Dr. Damien Williams: mm-hmm. 

[00:23:32] Ilana Razbash: That many of the employees bought up early on. But these developments, this part of under the Nightingale Model as well, and AMA are very, very popular amongst the people that work on it.

[00:23:43] So it's really a testament to the quality of life. 

[00:23:45] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm. 

[00:23:46] Ilana Razbash: You get in such a place. 

[00:23:48] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, that, that's right. And look, I'm, I mean, I think the, I mean, the reason for, for doing that is obviously to just, you know, you get such a, a wonderful feel for a place as well as a look at it when you do a walkthrough. Right.

[00:24:04] And I think that's a terrific way to experience you know, built space and built environment. And it, it sort of, I think offers an opportunity to for people to sort of anchor their understanding of what's possible locally in that experience that they've had elsewhere, which, given the distance we are from those sort of centers of development at the moment is not really achievable here at the moment.

[00:24:32] You can't do a walkthrough of a similar type building. But I think where this area will, will start to change and where I hope, I hope that the, the quality of building stock improves so that for residents here, you know, their long term running costs, for example will start to be decreased. I think it will be in, in whoever does it that one development that can at least achieve that same, you know, type of level or maybe even go to 10 stars, right?

[00:25:02] That would be, I think, achievable at the moment. And once people here can walk through and experience what I was describing to you earlier, then I think they'll go home, they'll do their sums and they'll look more readily at that type of thing and perhaps have less of that knee jerk reaction against oh five stories.

[00:25:25] You know, there, there's a heightist kind of approach to, you know, thinking about thinking about building character and, and that sort of thing at the moment. But I think that that might start to change and, and ideally will start to change pretty quickly. 

[00:25:41] Ilana Razbash: You raise an interesting question on neighbourhood character.

[00:25:44] What are some of the positions, what does your group think about neighbourhood character as a planning mechanism, as something council often gets worried about? 

[00:25:52] Dr. Damien Williams: I mean, individually there's, there's a variation. Some people would see that there is great value in, you know, being able to retain, say detached dwellings on suburban blocks in order to preserve vegetation cover.

[00:26:08] Which obviously is a big concern at the moment because like a lot of places, you know, this area is seeing less and less cover. And then I think there's others who would perhaps like to see a, a greater amount of focus on a, the, the public and the private. In thinking about character, I mean, my assessment of the way that people discuss and think about character at the moment is it's very much on the private side of the fence as opposed to the public side.

[00:26:40] The public side is taken I think as a given, as a space where you know, there's nature strips and there's places for cars, and I, I think that if we are to move to a more walkable community, then there's a need for us to think about the urban environment and character in a more total sense, in a more holistic sense.

[00:27:06] And that's gonna involve, you know, some new discussions. I think about the, the kind of strategic land use that we currently undertake and the sort of value that we put on land at the moment. You know, we, we have we have a, a strange situation here where really, not, not just locally, I should say, but really in Australia generally land is spoken about as land, and then we have other commodities.

[00:27:34] So maybe when land gets started to be seen as something with a value, like we'd value a commodity. Then maybe we can have a smarter discussion about the way it's used. 

[00:27:43] Ilana Razbash: When you start caring about land and place and country. 

[00:27:46] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:27:47] Ilana Razbash: Like gold. 

[00:27:47] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. 

[00:27:49] Ilana Razbash: And look, look after it and repair it and restore it to a neighbourhood character that was before.

[00:27:55] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:27:56] Ilana Razbash: The colonised neighbourhood. 

[00:27:57] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:27:58] Ilana Razbash: So it's, I believe, often historians right, grapple with this question, particularly in cities or civilisations with lots of layers of history where you choose how far to go back. 

[00:28:08] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:09] Ilana Razbash: And if you were really pushing the neighbourhood character question, wouldn't you repair critical ecosystems, which we're so lucky to have beautiful wetlands and the Karrum Karrum Swamp.

[00:28:19] Dr. Damien Williams: Yes, very much so. And and also areas that have been. Built on, on that existing swamp. I mean, you know, you've got one in four houses in Kingston that are built on the historic swamp. And, and at the moment that's subject to an 80 centimeter flood overlay, which is the state government standard. But in other places like Moyne Shire in southwest of Victoria where Port Fairy sits today, they've voluntarily undergone a new assessment that's using a 1.2 meter assessment.

[00:28:49] I believe that Queenscliff has been you know, considering a similar sort of move that's an a similarly very low lying area. And it wouldn't surprise me if Kingston looks at that as well. I mean, interestingly, to come back to the question of character, there are people who would, would generally be opposed to greater amounts of development who are starting to use some of the flood arguments as a reason for trying to restrict supply in that sense of restricting heights. 

[00:29:20] I hesitate about going down that path though, because I think that if you're gonna make those sorts of claims, you need good evidence to back it. And although, you know, we're aware of the general threats and the, the, the differing likelihoods of change under certain, you know climate change scenarios, it is important to note that in local instances there is, there is variation.

[00:29:45] I mean, for example, in this area here we're talking about areas that are essentially flooding behind the sea in the sense that, you know, the sea level rise that we're talking about, the risk of it is about water coming up the creeks and the tributaries and then flooding the areas behind. And then you've got the problem of the historic flow from the Dandenong and Eumemmerring creeks, you know, go in the opposite direction towards the bay.

[00:30:07] So that that raises situations that can't necessarily be mapped from other places onto here and it just requires a bit of nuance and careful consideration because, you know, as you're aware, we are talking about nationally trillions of dollars worth of housing stock. We're talking about a situation where obviously private insurers and reinsurers are doing their calculations as well.

[00:30:34] And I'm not sure whether you and I discussed this earlier, but there are people here who last year were contacting council saying, I've received an assessment for my house insurance. It's $10,000. Another person saying it's $6,000, and these are standard size properties. And the the view that was expressed to me from people who know more about this stuff was that it's likely that their reinsurers have put red lines through this part of the, the world.

[00:31:01] And then it, it does become a live question about, well, in the event that there is an extreme whether event that that you know, damages people's property or makes them homeless, who pays? 

[00:31:13] At the moment we have a situation where we assume that insurers are going to cover part of it, but when you've got a situation nationally where they're still profitable, right?

[00:31:25] They're still returning money to the shareholders but the cost are getting higher, and they have their own in-house experts now. I mean 

[00:31:35] Ilana Razbash: Follow the actuaries. 

[00:31:36] Dr. Damien Williams: That's right. 

[00:31:36] Ilana Razbash: You wanna see where the risk sits, follow the actuaries.

[00:31:39] Dr. Damien Williams: ARG employs climatologists and meteorologists now, you know, they're, they're providing expert advice to them.

[00:31:43] So, you know, 

[00:31:45] Ilana Razbash: It's a massive matter of equity. 

[00:31:47] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:31:47] Ilana Razbash: Really. And I think about all my wonderful neighbours that I've had the pleasure of meeting in the almost a year now that I think about it, that we've lived in this area.

[00:31:55] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:55] Ilana Razbash: And I think about them being able to age in place and stay in their community or their home for reasons of insurance for reasons of, is their city safe for them? Are their streets safe for them? Can they comfortably walk? And that's really a question, right? If we can make a street, a town, a place safe for both elderly and children, we're we're really covering people. We're we're covering a place. 

[00:32:23] Dr. Damien Williams: Oh, very much so.

[00:32:24] And, and I think that's where, you know, we are also going a long way towards meeting those targets that we, that we need to meet as far as reducing our emissions to zero as, as quickly as possible. But in doing so, to borrow a phrase from Kim Stanley Robinson that he uses in his newish novel The Ministry of the Future, he talks about a good Anthropocene.

[00:32:47] And I think we're at a moment where we can plan for a good Anthropocene or we can do nothing and watch it roll out as a shit show. And when it comes to, you know, returning to that theme of, of equity, I think it's really beholden on us when we have a very good idea with a high level of confidence about what the likely effects of doing nothing are gonna be on people who are born today or who are too young to participate in the political process or don't have the capital to participate in, in the process as rate payers, right?

[00:33:24] As as own occupiers. Then equity demands that an equal weight be given to their needs. So, for instance, you know if you have a, a child who's in prep this year, it might be four or five years old, they'll be 31 or 32 years old in 2050, and that's probably an age at which we can say with some confidence, they're probably gonna be looking for a place to start a family if they wanna do that.

[00:33:52] Now, I think there's a question mark that there's a question that we should be asking ourselves, which is that if, if we know with a level of confidence that their chances of being able to find shelter here are gonna be harder, or their ability to walk the streets is gonna be more difficult because of extreme weather, or that their parents will be elderly by that time, will also be finding it more difficult.

[00:34:19] Then if the choices we are making now are likely to result in those things, we should probably be reconsidering the choices we're making now. 

[00:34:28] Ilana Razbash: That's why I'm really interested in the priorities of Zero Kingston 2030. 

[00:34:32] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:33] Ilana Razbash: When I first learned about them, in many ways I was a bit surprised because it's not many environmental groups.

[00:34:40] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm. 

[00:34:40] Ilana Razbash: Identify urban forestry as a main strategy, identify the importance of housing. 

[00:34:46] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:46] Ilana Razbash: As a main strategy. 

[00:34:47] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:48] Ilana Razbash: Identify the walking city as gonna be these big ideas. And architecture is very much about ideas. So I'm really loving this, this thread that it underpins everything else we're gonna do.

[00:35:01] Because if we can get those three things right, correct me if I've misunderstood, misunderstood your strategies, but if we can get those three things right, we will have a sustainable Kingston that will be adapted and adaptive for whatever's to come. 

[00:35:17] Dr. Damien Williams: Very much so. No, that, that's, that's hitting the nail right on the head.

[00:35:20] I mean, it's, I think it's an, it's an opportunity for us to be able to plan in a way that actually makes the community healthier and wealthier by saving money from, from long-term household running costs. And that also can at the same time overcome some of those persistent problems that we have throughout the community to do with social isolation, for example, I mean, I've, I've not driven a car here for about the past seven years. 

[00:35:50] And truth be told, it's it's pretty shit. When you don't, when you don't drive a car in a place that's very much car centric and you're this far from town, there are times when, you know, you have that kind of, you know, FML moment. But the other flip side to that is that in walking around everywhere, I've made more friends locally just from bumping into people.

[00:36:13] And, and this is one of the things that of course urbanists have been saying for years, that, you know, one of the things that makes good cities function is the fact that you can bump into one another. And that, that cities bring together people of diverse backgrounds and skills. And, and that's where you see innovation because, you know, people have discussions like this and, and we come to new conclusions about things and new ideas and business opportunities and friendships start to emerge.

[00:36:39] So that's where, you know, I'm, I'm still hopeful enough to think that something better can come from this even with the knowledge that at least for, you know, our generation and likely for the next, that things are gonna get pretty tough. So I think we can plan to mitigate against those likelihoods, even though, you know, none of us know a hundred percent for certain what the future's gonna hold, but we can say that based on the best available evidence that we can be planning for this sort of scenario and, and trying to create something better out of it.

[00:37:18] And without labouring the point too much, I mean, that's why I sort of prefer these days to use that phrase, planning for good Anthropocene rather than something like responding to climate change. Because it, I think it's got to the point where that phrase now is sort of so empty or people kind of roll their eyes at it and it becomes part of that, again, that background, static. 

[00:37:41] Ilana Razbash: Where's the tangible hope in that as well, 

[00:37:43] Dr. Damien Williams: Right? Yeah. 

[00:37:44] Ilana Razbash: You know? 

[00:37:44] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:37:45] Ilana Razbash: Because I think my neighbours and I can all visualise a greener street 

[00:37:49] Dr. Damien Williams: mm-hmm. 

[00:37:50] Ilana Razbash: With beautiful leafy canopies when it's too hot to walk the dog 

[00:37:53] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:37:53] Ilana Razbash: along the beach.

[00:37:54] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:54] Ilana Razbash: Which is where I meet up with everyone and chat, say hi. So necessary those interactions of community. 

[00:38:00] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm. 

[00:38:00] Ilana Razbash: Because we are inextricably interconnected. We can't be separated from each other. 

[00:38:06] Dr. Damien Williams: Right. 

[00:38:06] Ilana Razbash: For that good future Anthropocene. 

[00:38:09] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:38:10] Ilana Razbash: So how, how do you imagine, Kingston, if, if, if you closed your eyes and thought about the, the ideal that council adopts the projects, the policies, the hopes, how, how do you see the main street?

[00:38:22] Probably Nepean Highway, I guess is our main, is our main street. 

[00:38:25] Dr. Damien Williams: Well, I, I really love what they've done in places like Lancaster, California, where they had a very similar five lane, what would you call it? Four and a half, five lane thoroughfare going through the middle of town there, and a few years ago, they decided to, talk to the community about doing something new.

[00:38:44] And and they did that in a deliberative process and they spoke to some designers and to the credit, they chose really the most daring design. And the most daring design was to put what they call a Ramblas, sort of Barcelona style Ramblas. Down the middle, which is tree'd. They've moved most of the parking.

[00:38:59] Ilana Razbash: That's a big promenade. Big, 

[00:39:00] Dr. Damien Williams: beautiful, 

[00:39:01] Ilana Razbash: big open promenade with lots of people can just walk through and stalls, and carts and shop vendors and skateboarders. I think they've let the skateboarders stay. 

[00:39:09] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, I, I think they probably have, 

[00:39:11] Ilana Razbash: For all the skaters 

[00:39:12] Dr. Damien Williams: It's been, they've reduced the speed limit to, I'm not quite sure the conversion, cause it's American, but I think it might be 15 miles an hour or 25 miles an hour.

[00:39:20] Anyway. It's a, it's a speed that's low enough for cyclists to use it safely without the need for protected lanes. And they reduce the, the traffic to one lane each way. So that means that there's a slowing, you know, when you narrow the lanes, there's a slowing effect on the traffic. And each Thursday, Instead of having the parking, there's a weekly market.

[00:39:42] And so the Ramblas is used for stallholders. Now that is entirely possible here and to my surprise and also joy, I saw the other week that there's a proposal to do just that at the Frankston end of Nepean Highway. So there's appraisal to do it, I think between where Davey's Hotel is and, and Oliver's Hill, along that bit, that kind of bends around as you head towards the peninsula.

[00:40:08] Now, if, if they're gonna kick it off all well and good, it's the same road, we just continue the project and it moves up to Mordiallic Creek and then hopefully beyond. 

[00:40:18] Ilana Razbash: Exactly, 

[00:40:19] Dr. Damien Williams: yeah. 

[00:40:19] Ilana Razbash: They have their case study. 

[00:40:20] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:40:20] Ilana Razbash: And Kingston actually has an open application at the moment for Parklets, so hospitality businesses. 

[00:40:27] Can you get on board?

[00:40:28] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, I have, but look, I have mixed feelings about parklets. 

[00:40:32] Ilana Razbash: Me too. 

[00:40:33] Dr. Damien Williams: Why do you have mixed feelings about Parklets? 

[00:40:36] Ilana Razbash: I'm concerned about the privatization of public space, 

[00:40:39] Dr. Damien Williams: Same, yeah. 

[00:40:40] Ilana Razbash: Yeah. So I, I support the idea of parklets generally. I think there's so many businesses around where I live that would really benefit from all that space, especially in our ongoing pandemic.

[00:40:53] Outdoor dining is great options for people, and it's good for business, it's good for people, it's good for the activation of the street, but I don't wanna see the privatization of beaches like they have all across most of the Mediterranean in Europe happening here. 

[00:41:06] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:07] Ilana Razbash: So when I see that in Elwood cropping up on the beach, that makes me a bit nervous.

[00:41:12] Dr. Damien Williams: What, for like beachside bars or something? 

[00:41:13] Ilana Razbash: Yeah, there's beachside kiosks, beachside, and the restaurants and bars take up sand space and put up the and St. Kilda too, Elwood and St. Kilda have it 

[00:41:22] Dr. Damien Williams: Right.

[00:41:22] Ilana Razbash: With marquees and umbrellas and sun chairs and lounges, but you have to have buy a drink to sit at the table.

[00:41:30] So I wouldn't wanna see that on, on the shore, but, 

[00:41:32] Dr. Damien Williams: No, no, it, it's something that's actually been underpinned by some research at UNSW. They were looking at this issue of transforming car parking and in this particular project, the team there decided to essentially sit some offices or bureaucrats of some kind on the, on the car park and see what people's responses to it were.

[00:41:58] And to their surprise, rather than, I don't know what the hypothesis was, but they, it was something along the lines that the researchers hypothesized that people would respond well to this idea of them moving people out of buildings, in other words that could be repurposed and then out into the open, essentially just working outside.

[00:42:18] And it was not liked. And for exactly the reason that you talk about it was perceived as being the privatisation of space. But then when they did, the follow up and instead converted it just to green open space that anybody could use. Like for example, the, the popup outside the Sun Theater in Yarraville.

[00:42:38] It was much more widely accepted. And I mean, to return to that thing we talked about earlier about, you know, strategic land use, when you look at the Parklets in town, for example, after closing time, they're just streamed with leaves. No one uses them because they're perceived as private space. 

[00:42:56] Ilana Razbash: People don't feel invited.

[00:42:57] Dr. Damien Williams: That's it.

[00:42:57] Ilana Razbash: To come there. 

[00:42:58] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. They put a picket fence around it and. 

[00:43:00] Ilana Razbash: If it was public space, you could get your coffee take away and sit there. 

[00:43:03] Dr. Damien Williams: That's it. 

[00:43:04] Ilana Razbash: You could get a meal takeaway and sit there and still use it. 

[00:43:06] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:43:06] Ilana Razbash: Around the clock 24 hours. 

[00:43:08] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:43:08] Ilana Razbash: But it's an interesting conversation, interesting question about what is it that we do give space to in a city and how much space we give to one car, usually occupied by one person versus me and 20 of my friends in the parklet. 

[00:43:23] Dr. Damien Williams: Well, I mean 

[00:43:24] Ilana Razbash: In that bit of public, 

[00:43:25] Dr. Damien Williams: yeah, 

[00:43:25] Ilana Razbash: Public green. 

[00:43:27] Dr. Damien Williams: Maybe there is, maybe it is time to offer a more critical response to Parklets because I mean, it occurs to me that in one sense they could be interpreted as ring fencing space for cars. It's not actually about ring fencing space for people.

[00:43:43] I think if we were serious about Streets for People, then we wouldn't kind of go halfway, like City of Melbourne's been having trouble with, with some of its one-way streets, as I'm sure you're aware, where they've been designated as shared spaces, but the drivers don't recognize people walking down them.

[00:44:00] They still see it as their space. And that's gonna come down to also the, the charge that we put on, on that kind of land use as well. That the idea that one can park the most polluting, the most dangerous, the most expensive, and the most inefficient form of urban transport on a finite piece of land for free is nuts.

[00:44:25] You know, if you, if you had a Martian who landed here and you tried to explain that to them and then you explained that the, the really efficient piece of transport that runs up and down the rail costs you money, they'd look at you like you had three heads and say, I might just go back to where I came from, thanks. This doesn't make any sense. You park the thing that sits still for 97% of the time and that depreciates in value 30% every year, and you do that for free. 

[00:44:54] Ilana Razbash: And you could only do that the part of your life. 

[00:44:56] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:44:57] Ilana Razbash: Over 18, if you can afford to own the car in this economy. 

[00:45:02] Dr. Damien Williams: That's right. Yeah. Yes. 

[00:45:03] Ilana Razbash: Or your parents' car, if you can beg to borrow it and not scratch it up, or for as long as you are able to drive, which for many people comes earlier than they expected.

[00:45:14] Dr. Damien Williams: Or if you don't choose to. 

[00:45:15] Ilana Razbash: If you don't choose to. 

[00:45:16] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah, 

[00:45:16] Ilana Razbash: Exactly. You should be able to stay in your community and stay connected. 

[00:45:20] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:21] Yeah. And look, and that's where I think in that process of making a lot of these familiar things, unfamiliar that's where I, I get a lot of consolation from history because, you know, historically you can find good evidence, even just in photographs of this area where you can see that streets were for people.

[00:45:42] And really until that period of the 1960s when a car became affordable for people on a working class wage, the the price dropped to the point where it was equivalent to about a quarter of the yearly income of a, of a working male in Australia. That's when car ownership becomes normalised and then we start to design or we planning authorities design streets around those cars.

[00:46:09] Now that's, In the history of cities, that's a relatively short space of time. But of course in living memory for people that perhaps born at that time, it's completely normal. So there's a, there's a job to do in sort of making the familiar unfamiliar, but I think that's possible. We've done it before with things like smoking, the introduction of seat belts and a range of other things that we sort of, we take as being normal.

[00:46:35] So I think it's possible here too. 

[00:46:36] Ilana Razbash: And those examples you brought are actually brought in for the benefit for the wellbeing of the public. 

[00:46:43] Dr. Damien Williams: Yeah. 

[00:46:43] Ilana Razbash: For the health of the public. 

[00:46:45] Dr. Damien Williams: Mm. 

[00:46:45] Ilana Razbash: Which a cleaner, fresher, greener, safer, more walkable city, arguably is a massive public health issue. 

[00:46:55] Dr. Damien Williams: Yep. Yeah. That, that's right.

[00:46:57] I mean, perhaps someone would say that the, the major difference with, with cars is that car culture successfully sells the idea of individual freedom. That's really what you're buying with that. And I think it's gonna be sort of turning the notion of freedom around and you know, considering, Saul Griffiths work that we've got here in front of us, it's gonna be freedom from the, from the increasing costs that will come from running those things, whether they're electric or whether they are internal combustion and a way of, you know, talking about electric vehicles in particular as being public or, you know, in the Dutch style, 

[00:47:41] Ilana Razbash: Car shares.

[00:47:42] Dr. Damien Williams: Car shares, exactly right. Yep. So more of that sharing economy or even you know, those wonderful cargo bikes, which you know, are probably the most efficient form of urban transport and an entirely possible option in an area that, I mean, where's the nearest mountain? 

[00:47:59] Ilana Razbash: Oliver's Hill, if you can count it.

[00:48:00] Dr. Damien Williams: There you go. So it's a very flat, it's a very bikeable place. Yep. 

[00:48:04] Ilana Razbash: Very, very bikeable. 

[00:48:05] Dr. Damien Williams: Yep. 

[00:48:05] Ilana Razbash: We're lucky to have walking trails, but in a way that they don't necessarily connect. 

[00:48:10] Dr. Damien Williams: Yep. 

[00:48:12] Ilana Razbash: When you said there was freedom 

[00:48:14] Dr. Damien Williams: mm-hmm. 

[00:48:14] Ilana Razbash: It's really interesting. It's a powerful imagery, I think for most people, many ways it can really galvanise a movement, a community.

[00:48:22] When you said that word in my mind, instantly, I thought of a forest. I don't think of a car as my freedom. I joke that my bike is my freedom machine. 

[00:48:30] Dr. Damien Williams: Right. 

[00:48:31] Ilana Razbash: But I thought of a forest. I thought of going for a hike, being in nature, having the time to immerse myself in green space and that, you know, I work in the city, I studied in the city and in those university years, when we got a moment for a break, we would go outside, lie down on the green lawn of The State Library, look up, have the sun on us, especially in the middle of winter.

[00:48:56] And it was connecting to that green space that made us feel that we were on country, that we were part of something bigger than just a building or a university. It gave us, it gave us that idea. So it's very interesting bit of imagery. I think people don't consider that something they think frees them, may actually entrap them.

[00:49:20] Dr. Damien Williams: True. I mean, I've heard that part of the appeal of manicured lawns is that it, it taps into our ancestral practice of domesticating animals and that it's the presence of grazing animals, that, that gives us comfort because of course there's a source of protein for us, you know from that period.

[00:49:40] Ilana Razbash: We haven't changed much, have we? Goodness. 

[00:49:45] Dr. Damien Williams: Oh. When, when I think about my late paternal grandfather who was a, sometime farmer. And it kept an incredibly neat lawn. I do sometimes wonder whether that that theory perhaps holds true. Although he, he didn't raise animals. He, he he grew crops. There is something very neat about places that you see in, in rural communities for, for whatever reason.

[00:50:07] But to return to the, the theme about trees and, and open space, there's, there's often an assumption made about people that live in ordinary communities. And this historically is an ordinary community. You know I've, I've myself heard, you know, advisors to some very senior government ministers, for example, refer disparagingly to, to places like this, this far from the CBD as being places of quote, "low information people."

[00:50:38] And it betrays a kind of mindset I think, that plays into the notion that working class people, ordinary people, don't appreciate greenery, you know, assumes that what they want is a car park. 

[00:50:50] Ilana Razbash: Deeply unjust statement. 

[00:50:52] Dr. Damien Williams: It is, and it's, it's evident, I think, or or I should say, sorry, that the assumption is reinforced whenever these sorts of issues get raised in public forums or these days, usually on social media.

[00:51:04] And if you you know, if you want to really rile people up, it will be to make a suggestion to remove car parking, right? Because like we've talked about, people associate that with freedom and also a driver has a perception that is very narrow, very limited to them wanting to get that spot by the front door.

[00:51:23] And if they don't get the spot by the front door, then they reach the conclusion that there's a shortage of car parks. There's not a shortage of car parks, there was just a high demand at the time you wanted to get to the front door, right? And so the way that it begins to sort of become, this self-perpetuating conclusion in communities like this is because the, the response reinforces the assumption.

[00:51:51] And the assumption is often what political actors carry into office. But what changes that is when you sit down with people and start to have a conversation with them, that begins with a question such as, how do you feel when you walk down the street? And I've done this with people around here, and they will tell you when they're given that opportunity to say, I feel agitated, I feel stressed, I feel like I'm on alert all the time.

[00:52:17] I don't wanna stay here. You know, gets treated like a drive-through, therefore you behave like a drive-through. And then when you show them a picture, save St. Kilda Boulevard, or you know, an area of the gardens. How do you feel when you're in an environment like this? Oh, I feel calm, I wanna bring my friends here.

[00:52:34] You know, so that's where perhaps a more deliberative engagement on these sorts of questions can be very useful, but that, that threatens people that come through into office and into political positions with a range of assumptions like we just discussed. So there's the, yeah. 

[00:52:53] Ilana Razbash: You've recently, you've recently been providing feedback on the 20 Minute City, the 20 minute walkable city plan for Kingston.

[00:53:02] And really what that means is you can work, you can live, you can play, you can do, meet all your basic needs in a 20 minute round trip by foot. How incredible would that be for it to come to fruition here? 

[00:53:16] Dr. Damien Williams: Oh, it'd be great. I mean I mean, to clarify, I wasn't actually, I wasn't actually providing feedback on that.

[00:53:23] Is that the walking and walking and cycling strategy, you're talking about? But I did sort of talk to it in that submission on housing and that that might be the one you're referring to. I agree. I think it would be great. I mean, in some ways I think it's unfortunate that 20 Minute City has become pejorative because of the criticisms and backlash that it's been getting famously from places like Oxford where they sort of refer to as a 15 minute city.

[00:53:47] And then it's become an issue in places like Alberta, Canada, which has just had recent provincial elections. They've returned a very conservative premier there who's, who's very very much opposed to these sorts of interventions, and is is a drill, baby drill kind of politician 

[00:54:04] Ilana Razbash: To clarify, the majority of this intervention is really to let people walk places comfortably and have mixed use development.

[00:54:13] Dr. Damien Williams: And that threatens people who have a, a conspiratorial view. That's been, that's been massaged and exacerbated by their experience of the Covid lockdowns. So look, personally I would tend to avoid the use of the term 20 minute city, although the philosophy I think of walkability is what I prefer. I mean, look, really if I was pushed, I think the, the idea that I really love the most is the concept of designing streets for people.

[00:54:40] I think that borrows more from perhaps the Dutch example you know, that didn't come about naturally. There's people here you can mention that to, and they'll say, oh, but they're a different culture over there. No, they're not. They just made different planning choices. 

[00:54:53] Ilana Razbash: Everything's a decision.

[00:54:54] Dr. Damien Williams: Everything's decision 

[00:54:55] Ilana Razbash: Everything's about priorities.

[00:54:56] Dr. Damien Williams: Yep. And it also took activism because, you know, in the seventies when they had those terrible cases of kids being hit by cars on the road, it galvanised a political movement. They did the car free Sundays, you know, it rolled on. There was also the oil crisis too, which I guess similar to our experience, pushed energy prices right up.

[00:55:12] But their response to it in designing streets for people is, is based around the idea that you still have car traffic and car transport. It's just that cars are treated as guests. And I think for me, that's the sort of philosophy I'd like to roll with here, where yes, there's a need because, you know, particularly when you think about it from an all abilities perspective, there's people who just physically can't get out by foot or by bike or wheelchairs.

[00:55:38] They need a car and that's fine. But it's just that we start treat them, treating them as guests and put people of all ages and abilities first. And then I think we'll have a, a really lovely place to live. 

[00:55:51] Ilana Razbash: Absolutely. 

[00:55:52] So what gives you hope for the future? 

[00:55:56] Dr. Damien Williams: Well, when I, when I see places like Park Life, see what is being done with the built environment there and reading Saul Griffith's work, I think he, he clearly sets out how you can achieve a, a zero emissions future for Australia with technology that's already here.

[00:56:19] And I think the other thing that, that gives me a sense of hope is the, the prospect of us being able to, to jettison some of the, the elements of our economics and our political systems that have got us to this point in time. It's not necessarily gonna take much. I think there's a great amount of fear amongst some people about the prospect of change, but I think we can do that without a, a great deal of disruption and, and come up with something that will be much better than doing nothing at all.

[00:56:56] Ilana Razbash: It's imagining our future with the tools we already have and the simple things we already know really, 

[00:57:02] Dr. Damien Williams: Very much so. Yeah. 

[00:57:03] Ilana Razbash: Thank you so much for joining me tonight, Damien. It's been a pleasure. 

[00:57:06] Dr. Damien Williams: It's been fantastic. Thanks a lot.

[00:57:13] Outro Theme: Thanks for joining me for another evening of Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrum Studio on Bunurong Country. You can replay the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting community radio. Take care.

[00:57:48] Station ID