Ep 2: Rachel Iampolski on placemaking, tactical urbanism & running for government

Transcription:

[00:00:00] Sponsorship Announcement

[00:01:09] Intro Theme

[00:01:21] Ilana Razbash: Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country and welcome back for another episode of Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. We are broadcasting to you live from the Karrum Karrum Swamp on beautiful Bunurong country tonight. My guest this evening is Rachel Iampolski and I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional lands on which she does most of her research.

[00:01:46] That's the Woi Wurrung country of the Eastern Kulin nations. Rachel is a researcher, creative producer, and higher education professor, professional, interested in the design and governance of more spatially just cities. Rachel is completing a PhD in Urban Geography at the Center for Urban Research at RMIT University, where she also teaches in the planning faculty.

[00:02:12] She recently contributed writing and commentary to key publications and forums including The Conversation, ABC Radio, Planning News, and the Festival of Urbanism. Rachel presently works in the community, engaged learning and research space, while also running her own tactical placemaking platform, Public Street. 

[00:02:41] She's a representative for the Australian Cities Research Network, an early career advisor of public space for the UNESCO partner organization, city Space Architecture, and a founding member of the Alliance for Praxis Research.

[00:02:55] She's experienced in both bottom-up and top-down styles of governance, but believes in the power of a mode that sits between both these approaches with a focus on evidence-based, future focused, and socially just policy making. Rachel was the Greens candidate for the Victorian 2022 state elections for the District of Caulfield.

[00:03:17] Welcome, Rachel. Thanks so much for joining me.

[00:03:20] Rachel Iampolski: Thank you. Looking forward to it. 

[00:03:22] Ilana Razbash: Well, the first question I ask all my guests is what's your earliest memory of a building or place? 

[00:03:29] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. I think my earliest memory would be the stairwell of the apartment that I was born in or grew up in which was a classic sixties brick three story apartment block in Caulfield.

[00:03:45] It was one bedroom and I, we lived there. It was me, my parents and then later my brother and my mum's students, 'cause she was a tutor, all in one bedroom apartment, anyway, but I don't remember the apartment that well, but I remember the stairwell, vividly, to the apartment. It was terrazzo marble, I would assume faux looking back at it now.

[00:04:03] But I didn't know the difference of time. I just remember it was, you know, had all these specks in it. And I just, yeah, it was white with orange and red and brown terrazzo specks, and I remember sometimes pretending to have fallen asleep in the car because I didn't wanna walk the three flights up. So I'm like, if I pretend I'm asleep, my dad would carry me into the house, into the apartment.

[00:04:23] And so I remember pretending to be asleep as he's carrying me. Looking down and seeing the terrazzo marble stairs. 

[00:04:30] Ilana Razbash: Out of the corner of your eye, just cheekily. 

[00:04:32] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. So I would assume somewhere like I was somewhere around two or three. Yep. 

[00:04:36] Ilana Razbash: It's super popular now as well. People would, people would die for that terrazzo. 

[00:04:40] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. Yep. 

[00:04:42] Ilana Razbash: So, interesting. You mentioned the stair as your first memory. 

[00:04:45] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:04:46] Ilana Razbash: Because you do research on your PhD at the moment 

[00:04:49] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:04:49] Ilana Razbash: Is largely on liminal spaces. 

[00:04:51] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, I didn't even make that connection. That's a good point. 

[00:04:53] Ilana Razbash: And the staircase is a 

[00:04:55] Rachel Iampolski: it's a liminal, yeah, 

[00:04:56] Ilana Razbash: it's a liminal space.

[00:04:57] Rachel Iampolski: Indeed. 

[00:04:58] Ilana Razbash: What does liminality mean? What is a liminal space? 

[00:05:01] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, great question. So liminality is just basically a concept that refers to something that is in between things. So, you know, people talk about the liminal space as a concept. You know, people will be like, oh, I'm, I'm, maybe I'm sitting in this kind of liminal space while I'm waiting to find out whether my visa got approved or something like that.

[00:05:21] Where you're not quite in one country or another, and then of course, it can also refer to physical spaces, so stairwells as being the in-between, in an apartment block, as being the in-between space. If you have your apartment and your private sphere is one space, and the outside world, the street as another kind of very obviously understood registered space, the liminal space would be the one in between i.e. the stairwell or you know, the entryway, et cetera.

[00:05:46] So I think these are, these kind of, when you start paying attention, they're all around us, but they only really exist conceptually if we have an idea of what is considered space and what isn't considered space. And so if we have this, you know, if we can register the street as a space, we can register our apartment as a space, but for some reason we don't register the stairwell as a space it therefore falls into this liminal category.

[00:06:09] But if you viewed the stairwell as a space, it wouldn't technically be a liminal space, would it? 

[00:06:13] Ilana Razbash: So we have a couple more definitions to tease out there. 

[00:06:16] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:06:16] Ilana Razbash: I think for tonight's listeners as well. 

[00:06:18] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:06:18] Ilana Razbash: But a balcony 

[00:06:20] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:06:20] Ilana Razbash: Is also a liminal space, right? 

[00:06:22] Rachel Iampolski: I, well, no, so that's an interesting one. I would consider personally a balcony a threshold space because it sits halfway between the public realm and the private realm, which is that it sits between your apartment and the street.

[00:06:34] However, if you are viewing it from the street, the balcony, you might view that as a liminal space because you're not quite looking into someone's apartment, but you're not quite looking at the street either, I think. Does that make sense? 

[00:06:45] Ilana Razbash: Oh, totally. 

[00:06:45] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:06:46] Ilana Razbash: I think in the last few years we definitely all felt and learned the importance of these 

[00:06:51] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah.

[00:06:51] Ilana Razbash: In between spaces, spaces these half inside, half outside, where can I get fresh air when I can't leave my house? Where can I sit when I'm not feeling well? These inside, outside moments. 

[00:07:01] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:07:02] Ilana Razbash: So then what constitutes the difference between a space and a place? 

[00:07:07] Rachel Iampolski: Mm.

[00:07:07] Ilana Razbash: And often, particularly in your research circles. I know it's quite a, a complicated question. 

[00:07:13] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:07:14] Ilana Razbash: Maybe I might offer my, my thought on it. 

[00:07:16] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah.

[00:07:16] Ilana Razbash: And you tell me how that, how that sits in your in your research. 

[00:07:20] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:07:21] I think so. A space, you know, the commonly accepted definition of how you of a space first place is that a space is purely the physical constraints. Like it's, it's purely the physical four walls of a room or a physical landscape or et cetera. Whereas a place is what happens when that space, a physical space is activated by people, by memories or by associations you hold. And that's when it sort of transitions from a space into place.

[00:07:51] So really space is you know, with sans people, without people or the impact that people have had, the legacy, even if they're not physically in the space at the time. So yeah, that, I think that would probably be the most common working definition, if you will. 

[00:08:05] Ilana Razbash: That's definitely how I've always thought about.

[00:08:06] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:08:07] Ilana Razbash: A space becomes a place when people bring their life 

[00:08:11] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:08:11] Ilana Razbash: And their energy and their passionsand their activation. 

[00:08:15] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:08:16] Ilana Razbash: And maybe this idea of then, does these places have memories and an intangible cultural heritage or, 

[00:08:22] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, absolutely. And, and those things don't have to be positive, right?

[00:08:26] They don't. It could be, you know, you can, you can have a negative memory of a place of a space, of a building, for example. And in your mind it's therefore now a place because you've associated negative memory, even if it's derelict. Like it feels like there's no people around, but there's a feeling that you as a person have now assigned to it.

[00:08:44] It's sort of turned into a place, if you will.

[00:08:46] Ilana Razbash: It transforms with our memories. 

[00:08:48] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Yeah. Without memories, our associations. Exactly. So some people, some if you like, not to get too academic about it, but there are some academic theories that would like some of the foundational theories in, in research that look at this topic that would say place is purely space just viewed through the lens of a person, if that makes sense.

[00:09:07] So when you put it through a human lens, that's when it becomes a place. 

[00:09:11] Ilana Razbash: I think I really felt that when I went traveling before the pandemic and I was in Japan. 

[00:09:16] Rachel Iampolski: Mm. 

[00:09:17] Ilana Razbash: And I went into those tiny little bars in Kabuki truck that Oh yeah. Like only five people. And I truly experience that definition because as an architect, I walk around cities and buildings constantly looking at it.

[00:09:30] Rachel Iampolski: Yes. 

[00:09:30] Ilana Razbash: Constantly looking at as a building, as an object, 

[00:09:33] Rachel Iampolski: Sure, as a design. 

[00:09:34] Ilana Razbash: As a room, as design. 

[00:09:35] Rachel Iampolski: Yep.

[00:09:36] Ilana Razbash: And then sometimes when you travel 

[00:09:39] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:09:40] Ilana Razbash: And you change your mindset and you, you say, oh, today I'm not looking at the greatest building in the world, today I want to feel what it's like to be in one of the most famous rooms in the world.

[00:09:49] I had that moment, and I was in one of these bars very fortunately because I was with a Japanese language speaker. 

[00:09:55] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:56] Ilana Razbash: Where it was members only, basically. 

[00:10:00] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:10:01] Ilana Razbash: I got to feel what it was like in one of those really unique rooms where everyone knew each other. 

[00:10:07] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:07] Ilana Razbash: And they were there because of their cultural interests.

[00:10:09] They were all musicians and writers and poets and that's when that definition became so, so black and white for me. 

[00:10:16] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:17] Ilana Razbash: So then part of your work is Praxis Alliance for Praxis Research. 

[00:10:22] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:23] Ilana Razbash: And Praxis is the, the practical manifestation of theories and ideas. 

[00:10:28] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:10:29] Ilana Razbash: Along with that and your work with Public Street 

[00:10:31] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm.

[00:10:32] Ilana Razbash: Of your organization you're really interested in placemaking and you've had some really fantastic installations and activations. 

[00:10:38] Rachel Iampolski: Oh, thank you! 

[00:10:39] Ilana Razbash: Most recently at the Queen Victoria Market. If anyone was lucky to pop by and see it. BioRhythm 

[00:10:45] Rachel Iampolski: BioRhythm, yeah. 

[00:10:46] Ilana Razbash: BioRhythm, with beautiful lights and sound and plants.

[00:10:50] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. It's an immersive plant sculpture, yep. 

[00:10:52] Ilana Razbash: Exactly right, so I wanted to ask about what is the importance 

[00:10:58] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:10:58] Ilana Razbash: of actively doing placemaking work and deciding that that is necessary. 

[00:11:04] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:05] Ilana Razbash: And, I also am curious as to where does that come for you in the process? Is that placemaking that happens before a building is built?

[00:11:15] Do you think that's important? Or do you think placemaking in many ways has been a remedial effort for you? That there's been a situation in a city 

[00:11:23] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:24] Ilana Razbash: And you've, and it's not quite right or in a suburb.

[00:11:26] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. Yep. 

[00:11:27] Ilana Razbash: Or locally area, and you had to come in and fix it up. So tell us, tell us about placemaking.

[00:11:30] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, great question. I think for me, definitely the way I view it anyway, and that's just from my personal professional lens, but that's, that's not to say that's the only way you can approach placemaking, certainly. But for me it definitely does come from the remedial lens. I think when it is used as a tool in the design phase, it's more in, in that sense, it's more just about human informed design principles rather than specifically placemaking. And that should be the goal, in general, like that should be the golden standard we're aiming for. 

[00:12:04] Ilana Razbash: I certainly think so. 

[00:12:04] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:12:05] Ilana Razbash: I, I believe buildings are for people. 

[00:12:06] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. And so that's like when people talk about placemaking be being built from the ground up, I'm like, well, I don't know if that's really placemaking or if that's just good design at that point.

[00:12:14] Ilana Razbash: Oh, 

[00:12:15] Rachel Iampolski: do you know what I mean? 

[00:12:16] Ilana Razbash: That's a good, that's a really interesting critique. 

[00:12:18] Rachel Iampolski: So for me, I, I'm more interested in it as, as in that remedial sense, okay, we've got the built forms that we have and they're not serving us the way that they should be. So that's when I think Placemaking's a really interesting tool to come in and play around with that and find ways to improve it.

[00:12:33] And I'm also really interested in it as an advocacy tool as well. So I think to me it's hugely important. I think placemaking has sort of where, you know, the origins of placemaking are contentious because some people say, well, what you are just describing good design, or you are just describing landscape architecture, or you're just describing human informed design thinking like, what, what about this is place?

[00:12:55] Like, where's that delineation? And that's, you know, that's valid critique. I'm not arguing, but I think for me, placemaking has come about as a, as a prominent movement now distinctly as a result of gaps in design thinking and design outcomes. And I say design in the broader sense. I don't just mean architectural 

[00:13:15] Ilana Razbash: Policy as well.

[00:13:16] Rachel Iampolski: Policy, absolutely. Policy governance. Exactly right. Urban planning design, landscape 

[00:13:21] Ilana Razbash: Infrastructure 

[00:13:21] Rachel Iampolski: Design infrastructure, exactly. All of it. Just generally how we design the environments that we live in, in the broader sense of the word from all facets. And so there's so many holes in that process and there's so many conflicting forces that have other agendas than just good livable outcomes for people.

[00:13:38] And as a result, I think, and people feel that, people feel the impacts of that. And placemaking, I think, has come around so prominently as a, as a, as a result of that, people trying to be like, okay, how can we remedy these? What are, what are other things we can be doing? It's almost like an instinct, you know?

[00:13:53] It's almost like a instinctual sort of knee jerk reaction to that outcome. Well, 

[00:13:57] Ilana Razbash: So it's sort of like when the, if the instinct hasn't quite worked 

[00:14:01] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:14:01] Ilana Razbash: If the creation of the space hasn't been intuitive enough 

[00:14:05] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Yep. 

[00:14:05] Ilana Razbash: To or consultative enough. Exactly. Or co-designed enough 

[00:14:09] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:14:09] Ilana Razbash: To lead and spur on the use and enjoyment and life in that space.

[00:14:15] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:14:15] Ilana Razbash: Placemaking helps re-inject it. You're like, 

[00:14:19] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:14:19] Ilana Razbash: You're the kombucha starter. 

[00:14:20] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Absolutely. And so that's why for me, I do see it and where the space I'm interested in is that remedial space. However, I think you know, the principles that can be learned from how it's used, remedially should absolutely then be used for when it's ground-up design.

[00:14:36] You know, we can learn a lot of lessons from placemaking and, and also from tactical urbanism, which is essentially placemaking, but led by citizens. So really informally, very low-fi interventions, largely out of necessity, like people painting you know pedestrian crossings onto the road where there isn't one, for example.

[00:14:53] That's usually what tactical urbanism is, and so I think the instinct for why we want it and the kind of design principles that people play around with when they do it, I think are really useful learnings for improving design when you're doing it from the ground up. But yeah, largely I see it as remedial.

[00:15:07] And I'm also really interested in it as an advocacy tool because if you're only ever doing it at the citizen level or at this sort of filling-in-the-gaps level, you're not really achieving structural change, and so I think any placemaking you do, not any, but when you do successful placemaking projects, you should be trying to push those as examples as case studies to advocate for those better design principles in the first place.

[00:15:33] Including through the government, which is sort of how I ended up increasingly in the political space 'cause I was like, well, it needs to come from both ends, but yeah. 

[00:15:41] Ilana Razbash: So you ran for local government and for state government and I, I really, I really admire that because I listened, it was a conversation many moons ago.

[00:15:51] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:51] Ilana Razbash: I had heard, and a prominent scientist and science communicator 

[00:15:55] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:15:55] Ilana Razbash: was being interviewed on the radio 

[00:15:56] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:15:56] Ilana Razbash: I think. And they were saying, oh, why'd you do this? Why'd you run for the Senate? 

[00:16:00] Rachel Iampolski: Mm. 

[00:16:00] Ilana Razbash: You didn't get in. 

[00:16:01] Rachel Iampolski: Mm. 

[00:16:01] Ilana Razbash: and he said, because good people with expertise in this field that we care about have to go in and have to go forward and put our hat in the ring.

[00:16:09] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:09] Ilana Razbash: So congratulations on putting your hat in the ring. And you had a bit of an upswing actually, didn't you? 

[00:16:13] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Got a, yeah, I think, yeah, got a little increase from the previous one from, you know, previous election which was great, and, you know, I was running in a seat that's been held by the liberals for all 70 years, since its inception.

[00:16:27] So I knew it's realistically, you know, it's, I'm not, we knew we're not gonna win, but that's not why we were running, we were running exactly for the reasons you were saying, and that, you know, it's about spotlighting the issues that you care about and sort of creating a very slow groundswell with sort of this longer vision in mind.

[00:16:43] Many, many elections away realistically, until so we're seeing the kind of change we wanna see, but you know, you have to start somewhere and, and, yeah, exactly right. I kind of would describe myself as a reluctant candidate in that I never wanted to run, I still don't wanna run, but I felt like I had no choice, you know?

[00:16:59] So I'm like, if you, if you wanna see the kind of stuff you wanna see, Being talked about and spotlighted and, and people have an option to tick it on a ballot, you need to put that onto a ballot. 

[00:17:09] Ilana Razbash: Absolutely. 

[00:17:09] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:17:10] Ilana Razbash: And you also contributed to policy writing, 

[00:17:12] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah.

[00:17:13] Ilana Razbash: You've been absolutely in the thick of the political process.

[00:17:16] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's, it's not a place I ever saw myself. I saw myself very much as a behind the scenes person and a creative person. So this was a complete 180 for me. And I still don't quite understand how it happened or that it happened. I'm still shocked by it cuz it feels really unnatural to me.

[00:17:33] But at the same time, natural at the same time, because I, you know, talk a lot about spatial justice, I talk a lot about the design of, of more equitable cities. And I've always thought about it from a bottom up perspective, from like a citizen led grass roots perspective and that's only as, as important as that is.

[00:17:51] And I will always be fighting in that space. I think it, it just, the outcome's gonna be when the top down and the bottom up meet in the middle. And I was like, I'm not seeing the sort of progress that I want to be seeing from the government sphere. So, you know, why not just get amongst it basically.

[00:18:11] Ilana Razbash: Yeah. 

[00:18:11] Rachel Iampolski: So I think it, it was sort of, it was, it was, I never saw it coming, but looking back in hindsight, it makes sense how I've ended up here. Cuz if you're talking about justice, be it spatially or otherwise, you, you're talking about law, you're talking about policy, you're talking about government. So yeah, there's no way around it unfortunately. 

[00:18:28] Ilana Razbash: Design and architecture has so many intersections with all that. 

[00:18:32] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:18:32] Ilana Razbash: No, architecture in many ways is, is everything. That's why we talk about these topics. That's why I've had these 

[00:18:37] yeah, absolutely. 

[00:18:38] interesting, multidisciplinary guests two weeks at a row so far. 

[00:18:41] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:18:41] Ilana Razbash: That are interested in many, many things.

[00:18:44] I do wanna give out the text number tonight if any guests wanna text in or have any questions for you. The number is 0493 213 831, so give us a text in the studio. Don't call us, just text us if you'd like to ask Rachel or contribute anything to the conversation. I'm, I'm also wondering, someone's listening at home tonight and they're thinking about, oh, I might run for government, I might go for council. 

[00:19:09] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:19:09] Ilana Razbash: Might give it a go. 

[00:19:10] Rachel Iampolski: Do it!

[00:19:10] Ilana Razbash: What, what would you say to them? 

[00:19:11] Rachel Iampolski: I would say do it! I'd say absolutely do it! No, no, but all jokes aside, I would, I would say do it. I would really say do it. I think there's so many I completely understand why it's intimidating, but people really get amongst you people even if they don't necessarily align with your political beliefs, you know, or et cetera.

[00:19:30] They're overall really supportive of people that put their hand up. And there is a lot of infrastructure in place, a lot of support in place for first time candidates. There's lots of programs specifically for women running, for young people running, people of colour running. There's lots of, if you fit any of that criteria, there's lots of programs.

[00:19:46] And there's also lots of programs through the Municipal Association of Victoria, which is sort of the peak body for, for government, local government. They have lots of classes you can attend, and they'll all be ramping up in the lead up to an election, so, which the local government is in October of next year.

[00:20:02] So there's still some time. So if you are anxious from that perspective particularly if you're running as independent and don't have party backing, there's loads of infrastructure in place and you, even if you don't win, you learn so much. You get connected with your community, you have the most interesting conversations with people.

[00:20:18] You challenge yourself on a personal level obviously, as well. So I think there's, there's immense value in running if you are running with the right intentions and you're running with passion in mind. With, with passion for your community mind, and good outcomes in mind. As I said, like winning is not the only metrics by which I think you can consider a campaign successful.

[00:20:37] It's about, like I said, starting that slow groundswell, having conversations with people and having an option for people on a ballot, that's significant in itself. So even if you wanna run just to, just for that and for the experience of it, that's still really successful. Even if you're not getting necessarily the votes you're after and you'll, you'll end up, I guarantee if you do it, so many opportunities will come from it as well.

[00:21:00] Cuz you're just sort of now connected in the community and people know your face and your number now, and you're gonna get calls, I guarantee you, for better or for worse. So I still have people sometimes emailing me, asking about, you know if I can do anything about the bins, the day the bins are being picked up from when I did local council elections in 2020, and I'm like, honey, I didn't get in! I just, but they remember you. And they're like, oh, you, you know, you were a canditate, can you do something about the bins? So anyway, God bless. But but people will message for all kinds of things, so, you know, it's, it's a really valuable experience. Yeah. 

[00:21:31] Ilana Razbash: That's really good advice. And I hope somebody who's been sitting on the fence or 

[00:21:35] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, 

[00:21:35] Ilana Razbash: itchy on the edge of their chair just takes the plunge and goes for it. 

[00:21:38] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, and I think I had the real I really thought, oh, well who am I to run, you know, I'm not sort of a middle aged white man with a background in law and small business, like the classic image you have in your mind of a politician.

[00:21:51] And then I looked up the rules of, you know, how to be eligible to run and you have to be over 18, registered to vote registered to vote in the municipality that you're running and not been to jail in the last five years and essentially, if you've met those criteria, you're good to go. 

[00:22:05] Ilana Razbash: Be the change you wanna see.

[00:22:06] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. So there's really, there's no, like, you are, you are suitable. If you think you're, if you wanna do it, that's enough to be, suitable to do it, basically. So yeah, I would encourage anyone to do it. That's listening. 

[00:22:20] Ilana Razbash: Go for it. 

[00:22:20] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah.

[00:22:21] Ilana Razbash: Go for it. Dear listeners. 

[00:22:22] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:22:22] Ilana Razbash: Get on board. 

[00:22:24] Rachel Iampolski: Or at least attend training and get a, get a sense of what's involved.

[00:22:27] You know, look up the Municipal Association of Victoria's training. Go along to a workshop or a webinar they host, you know, get a taste for it, at least see, see what you think before you commit, 'cause you don't have to commit formally on paper 'till like the 11th hour before the election, so you've got lots of time.

[00:22:42] Ilana Razbash: I think that's really important information as well, because people don't often know that it is that accessible. 

[00:22:48] Rachel Iampolski: It's super accessible. 

[00:22:49] Exactly. 

[00:22:50] Ilana Razbash: That the political process is actually there for their participation in 

[00:22:54] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly, yep. 

[00:22:55] Ilana Razbash: The democracy is there for your participation. 

[00:22:57] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:22:57] Ilana Razbash: And while we're on the topic, everyone should start gearing up to learn about and talk about the upcoming referendum.

[00:23:04] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:05] Ilana Razbash: For indigenous recognition in the constitution. While, while we have touched on the topic of the democratic process 

[00:23:11] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:23:11] Ilana Razbash: Because it is a, a privilege, but very much a right. 

[00:23:14] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:14] Ilana Razbash: And you've gotta be involved in it, at the very least. Please vote. 

[00:23:18] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:23:19] Ilana Razbash: But, oh, there's so many people in our local community here in Kingston 

[00:23:25] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm.

[00:23:25] Ilana Razbash: Who are very passionate about this area, who are really passionate about their beachside suburbs. 

[00:23:31] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:32] Ilana Razbash: And in more inland suburbs as well, who are getting involved in local community groups. My guest last week, Dr. Damien Williams, was the president of one of those groups, and not only would they be in ,potentially, interested in running in government and considering politics 

[00:23:51] Rachel Iampolski: Yep.

[00:23:51] Ilana Razbash: Reluctantly. 

[00:23:52] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:23:53] Ilana Razbash: They also do a lot of, Yeah. Their own grassroots, placemaking work. 

[00:23:58] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Great. 

[00:23:59] Ilana Razbash: And I'm quite interested in what's your favorite placemaking project or tactical urbanism project that you've recently done? Can you describe that a little bit for us? 

[00:24:08] Rachel Iampolski: Oh, that I've personally recently done?

[00:24:09] Ilana Razbash: Yeah. That you've done, either yourself with Public Street or with your Alliance for Praxis Research Collective. 

[00:24:15] Rachel Iampolski: Hmm, that's a great question. I think well probably the most recent one that I can think of that was really unexpectedly impactful. Like we, we thought, sort of did it thinking it wouldn't be, you know, it was just sort of a small project we were doing on the side.

[00:24:32] And it ended up being quite impactful, I guess, for, for us. Was was a project with, with the Alliance for Praxis Research and Public Street was a collaboration and it was called Open Lab. It was for Melbourne Design Week of last year, and it was essentially a cupboard that we purchased off Facebook Marketplace and it is designed to be sort of like a tactical mobile placemaking unit so people can move it around and set it up to kind of create their own sort of infrastructure for social engagement, whatever that looks like.

[00:25:07] You know, if you just, 

[00:25:08] Ilana Razbash: What color was it? Can you describe this cupboard for me? 

[00:25:10] Rachel Iampolski: The cupboard was gray and it was very old, it was very no, sorry. It was, well it was brown, but it was gray-ing. I think from being out in the rain for so long someone was just throwing it away basically, and from, it was really easily from the seventies, vinyl and, but on the inside we painted it essentially rainbow, but in waves.

[00:25:28] And we had hand tie dyed fabric that pulled out onto a hills hoist, so inside you open the cupboard and there's a hills hoist, a mobile hills hoist that you put out. It, it stands out and then you connect fabric across it. So you kind of create shade and then there was like a pullout picnic table.

[00:25:46] There was, you know, soft furnishing, there was rugs cushions, et cetera, and lots of equipment to play with, and we also used it as a mobile podcasting studio. So we had people come and join us inside the space, if you will, for, for conversations around public space, and it was really fun because we put it in really, so it looked so janky. I mean, it really was very cheap. 

[00:26:08] I think we did the whole thing for, I don't even know, no money at all. It was all op shopped or, or, or donated materials. And it was very lo-fi and we put it in places like Spring Street. We put at Spring Street right opposite parliament. We actually had to get a permit to put it in a parking bay, which took months of negotiation with the city to get, and we put it on Gertrude Street, we put it in front of the art gallery. We put it in these quite sophisticated spaces, if you will, in quite formal spaces. And it was, you know, it was a particularly great image looking at it opposite the treasury building on Spring Street. 

[00:26:43] And people would walk past, interested and confused what it was, and we had a sign saying, you know, this is for free to use, like, come on in. Like we had, we had a, A-frame that sat to, to the side and you could, you know, but people, if we were in the space ourselves, people would come up and chat and would be so interested and would, you know, poke around and use the space.

[00:27:03] But if we left it unattended, i.e. left it for people to open and discover and play with people would definitely stop and look, but were really resistant to use it, which was a super interesting learning experience about the kind of there's sort of, I think in Australia there's we're very good at following rules in Australia and we have a real respect of public and private space and that delineation and there's sort of this resistance of what, how to make space as your own.

[00:27:32] We don't really play with, with our social infrastructure sorry, our physical infrastructure. That much public infrastructure. And I think this was a extension of that. We were very physically we're very in terms of like yes, our, our embodied engagement with spaces were very reserved as a culture, I think for better or for worse.

[00:27:51] And so there was, yeah, there was a real resistance from people. There was interest but ultimately resistance to go ahead and use it because there was this perception, I guess, well what if this is someone else's? Even though we had a big sign saying it's free to use, whereas when you saw other people using it, it sort of gave you the social license to come and engage.

[00:28:09] It was like, okay, well this is clearly okay to use cuz here are these other people using it. So it was, it was really interesting Experiment in a way, like a playful sort of experiment in public space. 

[00:28:18] Ilana Razbash: That's a very interesting observation. 

[00:28:20] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, so it's, we, we, it's on wheels. So we still have it in storage.

[00:28:24] It was recently used at, at Queen Vic Market again for an event. Someone was hosting an event, there was a conference for people in the gig economy and he was interested as a researcher from Monash, interested in using creating spaces in the city for gig workers to be able to come and rest or charge their phone or get, you know, get a hot drink.

[00:28:42] And he wants to basically build a space and there's a hosting a, a symposium to kick this project off and they use the Open Lab. There's a place for people to sit. So, you know, it's, it's doing the rounds, it's getting some use, but it's it's also very clunky and heavy to move. So we're gonna try to prototype another version that's a lot smaller and lighter and can be more mobile essentially.

[00:29:02] But yeah, it was, it was very interesting experiment, but it was ironically, one of the cheapest, easiest, most sort of, didn't have much thought into it beyond just, oh, let's do this fun thing, and I think that's usually where the best outcomes come from anyway. 

[00:29:16] Ilana Razbash: Yeah, those really unexpected moments.

[00:29:17] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no pressure in the Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

[00:29:22] Ilana Razbash: You've done a lot of walking tours in the city as well. 

[00:29:25] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. I love, I love walking tours. I just love them and I love doing dérives, which is sort of this concept this French concept of walking without purpose. I think it translates, there's no direct translation, but loosely translates to drifting.

[00:29:41] That's what I've been told anyway. I'm not, I don't speak French, but I've been told it sort of loosely translates to drifting in that you're walking with no destination in mind, no aim. You're just going for a walk and you're meant to the concept sort of encourages you to get disorientated and walk, walk without a destination or without quite the geographic awareness of where you are.

[00:29:57] So that sort of allows you to disassociate from your expectations of what the city is or what the space that you're exploring is based on what you've known it to be. You can disassociate from that and sort of see it from this fresh lens, if you will. So we, we lead these sort of tours. We lead these dérives where we, we go out with people.

[00:30:16] So that's always fun, and also I used to, I haven't done it for a little while now, I think the pandemic slowed stuff down, but we used to do readings in public space. We used to collect, to do reading groups on, on topics of public space in the public space that we're reading about, so that was always fun.

[00:30:32] But have to, yeah, have to get back into that. I haven't done it in a little while actually, if you wanna go out reading in public space, 

[00:30:38] Ilana Razbash: I'd love to. 

[00:30:38] Rachel Iampolski: Let me know. 

[00:30:39] Ilana Razbash: These, interestingly, these are all things people in the local community can pick up themselves. 

[00:30:45] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:30:46] Ilana Razbash: They can go for a dérive. Have you sometimes applied rules to your dérive?

[00:30:50] Rachel Iampolski: Yes. yes. 

[00:30:50] Ilana Razbash: Like turn right every.. 

[00:30:52] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly, because what happens is because we, the people that join in are so familiar with the, the city in that, they're locals or have been here for a while, so we have to set rules to help with the disorientation. Right. So it'd be like, oh yeah, exactly. Every time you get to an intersection, turn right.

[00:31:09] If the street starts with a vowel, turn left. If it starts with a consonant follow any smells, you know, like follow the sound of clanging, whatever. We'd set some rules to help, to help disorientate. And you do you actually end up in the weirdest spaces you've ever been, and I think so that kind of stuff is, is, is really fun.

[00:31:28] But I think in terms of I placemaking projects that the, the community can get involved with, I think those kind of projects like these, these walking tours or dérives reading groups are really fun for thinking about space from a new lens. Exploring that topic, but if you're looking at projects that are making sort of more impact on your local community, then I, what I would really advise people to, to get their hands dirty with is tactical urbanism projects, which, like I said, are basically placemaking, but at a very low fire level and led by the community and very much with the idea of improving the outcomes of your local community and the public spaces around it.

[00:32:09] So a classic one is that people close off streets themselves, they just go out and buy. So it, it, it, it involves the sort of infrastructure and symbols of formal sort of infrastructure building and used strategically tact, you know with, you know, specific tactics in mind by citizens.

[00:32:29] So, you know, classic ones would be high vis vests so you look formal in what you're doing. Traffic cones is a great one. Tape and paint. So really simple interventions that have that sort of credibility of big infrastructure projects. And so if you've always wanted to close off your street, for example, to car traffic to put on a, you know, like let's say a block party or something and you can't be bothered going through all the permits and, and the whole rigmarole of going through the council to do it formally, you can just put out some witch cones. 

[00:33:03] Ilana Razbash: I was gonna say that is a little bit of a cheeky solution. 

[00:33:05] Rachel Iampolski: It is a cheeky and that's, and that's, but that's what tactical urbanism is, right?

[00:33:09] It is a ch and gorilla urbanism is a tact, is a cheeky and strategic intervention in place of like a very bureaucratic, heavy system that ,limits citizens' ability to actually cultivate their own local spaces. So it's like, okay, well maybe we can go around the rules a little bit. But you do, but, but I guess the other caveat is that it's done in ways that have no permanent implications on, on spaces around them and infrastructure, right?

[00:33:36] So you're not doing any kind of permanent damage or anything that's not reversibles or temporary. It's all removable. So all it is is witches cones. You can move witches cones in a second if someone comes along, a local laws officer and asks you to move your witch's cones. You know, so you can, you can do that.

[00:33:52] A slightly more intense one is to paint onto the road if you wanna paint. You know, I've seen these great ones where people are trying to slow down traffic on their local street, because cars are coming down really fast. They've written to local council, it hasn't been actioned, et cetera, and people just paint circles or shapes onto this road, which naturally cause, forces drivers to slow down, cuz people will be like, oh, what is this? So they end up driving a bit slower. And so they've kind of taken, making their streets safer into their own hands. So there's lots of interventions you can do, and if it's something you're interested in and you're listing, I'd recommend Googling tactical urbanism examples and seeing there's so many great ones from all over the world.

[00:34:31] And they, they're just really simple and easy ways to do it. And I think if, yeah, if there's, if you've ever walked past this space and thought, oh gee whiz, wouldn't it be better if it was like this? Or you could access this or this was closed off, or whatever. There's probably a way you can try and do it yourself, at least for the day.

[00:34:46] It won't be permanent, but you can get away with it for a day maybe. And if you do it, I would recommend, depending on the legality of it, taking photos and sending it to your Councillor, being like, look how great this outcome was, we closed the street and we had all this intervention, all this activation.

[00:35:02] So we had kids playing through, whatever. Can you think, can you think about doing this in a more permanent way? And that's where I see placemaking and tackle urbanism as a, as an advocacy tool. If you are sort of then taking these good examples, good outcome examples up to your, to your relevant government authority. Yeah. 

[00:35:23] Ilana Razbash: As a, a test, a test scheme. 

[00:35:26] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, just casually inviting your listeners to do crime, but.. 

[00:35:30] Ilana Razbash: I, I should note that there are very much plenty of permits 

[00:35:33] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:35:34] Ilana Razbash: Mechanisms to do that. 

[00:35:35] Rachel Iampolski: No, there are, and there are formal ways. Of course, if you've got the time and energy there, do the formal route, of course. But if you don't..

[00:35:41] Ilana Razbash: And at the moment there's also, we, we touched on this last week with my guest, but there is an open application process with the city of Kingston for parklets.

[00:35:51] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:52] Ilana Razbash: And the thing about this application in particular 

[00:35:55] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:35:55] Ilana Razbash: Is that it's to hospitality businesses only. 

[00:35:58] Rachel Iampolski: Gotcha. 

[00:35:58] Ilana Razbash: So if you're a shopkeeper on the street, and if you're not a hospitality business 

[00:36:05] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm.

[00:36:05] Ilana Razbash: You can't apply for it, that permit. 

[00:36:07] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:07] Ilana Razbash: As far as I understand it. So what are some recommendations 

[00:36:10] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:36:11] Ilana Razbash: You can make to hospitality businesses looking at designing their parklets to be a bit more open, to be a bit more inviting, a bit more democratic if, when the, when the store is closed, to encourage people to use it or to encourage people to stay longer.

[00:36:26] Can, can you make any suggestions to improve the, the civic quality of parklets? 

[00:36:31] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, 

[00:36:32] Ilana Razbash: Because they're, they're complicated. They're, they're definitely contentious. 

[00:36:35] Rachel Iampolski: Definitely. So I think greenery is a big one, particularly if you can get away, if you've got the budget for it, for real greenery, like if you can put, if you have the budget for inbuilt planters on the periphery of the parklet, I think is really great, just visually.

[00:36:50] And then likewise, I think I see a lot of parklets that have thought about the interior, but haven't really thought about the exterior, and it's just the exposed timber, so if you've got any capacity to offer any kind of, you know, visual application to the outside, even if it's just a lick paint, you know what I mean?

[00:37:08] And then, Likewise, I think to go to the topic of how to have to get the most function out of it, even when your business is closed, for example, if it's a cafe you know, how, how, how can people use it after four o'clock when the cafe closes is I think inbuilt furniture. So rather than the temporary, rather than the restaurant furniture that you pull out every morning and, and take away every afternoon, if you can have inbuilt furniture in the parklet, or at least some of it like, sort of bank seating on the periphery, and then you bring out tables that, that's a great one.

[00:37:38] And I think also visual diversity is, is important, like that there's, it's not just one homogenous design or shape, play around with the heights of the seating or the colors of the seating or the fabric. You know, just some, something visually to break it up and create a bit of intrigue when people walk past and if there's, again, any capacity, I think also and again, this obviously depends on permits and where you're on the street to basically reduce to, to, to bring some kind of canopy or something that sort of sits overhead, even if that's just a row of fairy lights or just, you know, two sort of, I, I don't know the architectural terms, but two, you know, rows of timber that creates sort of a bit of a, 

[00:38:19] Ilana Razbash: Like an arbery?

[00:38:20] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or, you know, something like that. This obviously has to be, you know, 

[00:38:24] Ilana Razbash: structurally sound.. 

[00:38:24] Rachel Iampolski: Structurally sound and and, and survive the elements, but something that creates a little bit of quasi ceiling, if you will, I think is really important for human scale, people like that the ceiling feels like it's there, like it's there basically.

[00:38:38] Especially if you are in a street with really tall buildings either side the human scale gets really warped and you feel really small and therefore not very comfortable on the street. So if you're particularly in a street with, you know, 3, 4, 5 plus story buildings it would be great to have some kind of canopy overhead just from that sort of, human experience.

[00:38:57] I think they're really useful. 

[00:38:59] Ilana Razbash: Those are all really good tips. 

[00:39:01] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:39:02] Ilana Razbash: Encouraging any listeners who are putting in parklet applications at the moment to see how can you open that up a bit more for your community? 

[00:39:11] Rachel Iampolski: But it, it is a shame though, that it is only open to hospitality, isn't it? Because imagine like a dry cleaner.

[00:39:15] I assume a dry cleaner business doesn't count as hospitality. I assume it's zoned as retail or something. I'm not sure. But imagine if it had a, if it had a small, even a small parklet out the front where you could wait while, you know, with magazines or something from the inside while you wait for your dry cleaning.

[00:39:32] You know, like I think just small things like that I think help create a more social street, a more social high street. So it's a shame we can only really extend our imagination around what that could look like to hospitality only. Yeah. 

[00:39:46] Ilana Razbash: That, that's my hope for the future with Parklets being taken up that we can be a bit more discerning maybe. Mm-hmm. With who we offer it to. 

[00:39:55] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:39:55] Ilana Razbash: And of course, you probably couldn't give a parklet to any business that applies. 

[00:39:59] Rachel Iampolski: Yep. 

[00:39:59] Ilana Razbash: But if the application can demonstrate the value add 

[00:40:03] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:03] Ilana Razbash: To the street 

[00:40:04] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:40:04] Ilana Razbash: To the public, to the amenity of the service, that laundromat's a perfect example.

[00:40:09] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:40:10] Ilana Razbash: I'd love to see council assessing that on its merits and helping, helping streamline those processes. 

[00:40:16] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:40:16] Ilana Razbash: And even streamlining block party applications. 

[00:40:19] Absolutely. 

[00:40:20] I know once upon a time my little cul-de-sac area used to do that, they're thinking of reinvigorating it. So.. 

[00:40:27] Rachel Iampolski: The block party?

[00:40:28] Ilana Razbash: Yeah, 

[00:40:28] the block party experience. Yes. 

[00:40:30] Rachel Iampolski: And why did they stop doing it? 

[00:40:33] Ilana Razbash: I think it was the pandemic. 

[00:40:34] Rachel Iampolski: Oh, sure. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:40:35] Ilana Razbash: Perhaps, 

[00:40:36] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:40:36] Ilana Razbash: Well, well before my time in the local area. 

[00:40:39] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:40:39] Ilana Razbash: With the street that I grew up in. 

[00:40:41] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:42] Ilana Razbash: In the city of Glen Eira 

[00:40:43] Rachel Iampolski: Mm. 

[00:40:44] Ilana Razbash: Area they have an annual block party. 

[00:40:48] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:48] Ilana Razbash: In the little park, actual park at the end of the street, at the end of the cul-de-sac.

[00:40:52] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you've got that infrastructure to do it in. Yeah, 

[00:40:55] Ilana Razbash: Exactly. So, so they already have the infrastructure to celebrate rather than having to occupy 

[00:41:00] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:41:01] Ilana Razbash: Tactilely 

[00:41:01] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm 

[00:41:02] Ilana Razbash: tactfully to, to create those, those moments for, for interaction. 

[00:41:08] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, there's, I think a lot of people want to do more, but find the process of doing it formally quite intimidating.

[00:41:18] Even though most of it's, you know, if you wanna find out the information, you will be able to find out the information, but it's taxing and it's intimidating and I think it turns a lot of people away. So, you know, I think it's, it would be great to see councils find ways to make that a lot more accessible to people.

[00:41:35] And in the interim, I think the other option is to do it. Guerrilla style 

[00:41:39] Ilana Razbash: Guerrilla gardeners. That was a very popular show, I think briefly. 

[00:41:42] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah,

[00:41:42] Ilana Razbash: At a sort of small run season on commercial television. 

[00:41:47] Rachel Iampolski: Well, that's a great example. Also, verge gardens, guerrilla verge gardens, which is when people are transforming the nature strip in front of their own property to, you know, a veggie garden or an edible garden or, or just planting non-edible native plants.

[00:42:01] I'm not sure the rules in Kingston, but a lot of councils that I know of allow it, it is legal to do it. However, if anyone complains, if anyone has any issues with the verge garden you will get a letter in the mail to remove it. So it depends. I mean, every council's got slightly different rules.

[00:42:16] I know some councils are a lot more supportive of it and others less so. But that's another great example of ways you can sort of reinvigorate the public realm in a way that's accessible and that that's still, that's right in front of your house. So that's space you're allowed to occupy.

[00:42:33] According to most councilors. I mean, probably look up Kingston specifically before you do it, but I would imagine it's okay. And that's another great one. People are, because I think something like, I read a statistic that in suburban areas about one third of open green space is nature strip, which is huge if you think about it.

[00:42:50] Ilana Razbash: Like manicured lawn. 

[00:42:52] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. Massive. And it's doing, that lawn is doing nothing for biodiversity. Visually it's doing nothing like it could be serving so much, serving people and an insects and animals and biodiversity is so much better than it is. And of course, I understand council does not have the infrastructure to turn every nature strip into a verge garden, but you have the right as a citizen to do it.

[00:43:15] And there's also community groups that go around and support you doing it. They'll, they share, you know, cultivated seeds and advice on how to do it. So that's another great example of, of tactical urbanism that has sort of come about. As a response to a lack of, you know, appropriate biodiversity in your neighborhood.

[00:43:32] And people have come up with this solution and it's a great solution. And now it is being adopted by, by councils, which is great to see. Yeah. 

[00:43:40] Ilana Razbash: Is a nature strip a threshold space? 

[00:43:42] Rachel Iampolski: Yes, I would say so, definitely. Oh, actually that's a great question, isn't it? I'd be curious to see what other people say. I would see it as the threshold space, but I would imagine there's people that just see it as the public realm and not the threshold space.

[00:43:55] So that's a curious one, isn't it? I wonder, I, I personally would, but I could imagine other people might see that as, as just part of the street, therefore public, not in between, public or private. 

[00:44:04] Ilana Razbash: Sometimes you get these moments where people have put down pavers 

[00:44:08] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:44:08] Ilana Razbash: Through their nature strips. 

[00:44:09] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah.

[00:44:09] Ilana Razbash: So that they can go directly into their car. 

[00:44:13] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:13] Ilana Razbash: And that for me is definitely a threshold moment. 

[00:44:16] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, yeah. Abso, yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So it's, it's sort of cuz most street designs will have the footpath, the cemented footpath, and then the nature strip and then the gutter. And so I could imagine if you were.

[00:44:27] For some people it is the nature strip is the threshold space between the footpath and the road. And for other people it's all part of the street. So it, it'd be interesting to see how people view it. 

[00:44:38] Ilana Razbash: Last week we touched on the topic of fine grain. 

[00:44:40] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:41] Ilana Razbash: And these threshold spaces 

[00:44:43] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:44:43] Ilana Razbash: These liminal spaces.

[00:44:45] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:45] Ilana Razbash: The they also, the phenomena that enhance and contribute 

[00:44:49] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:44:49] Ilana Razbash: To the fine grain. 

[00:44:50] Rachel Iampolski: Absolutely. 

[00:44:51] Yeah. And it's, I think for me also fine grain is the stuff you don't even necessarily think about. Like it's just sort of there and it's certainly when you're forced to stop and think about it, that you realize how much quote unquote "liminal or threshold spaces exist around you."

[00:45:06] And there this sort of, Cowboy space in that it's not quite clear who owns it and who's responsible for it. And even if there is a formal owner, right? But I just mean when you walk past, there's this sort of feeling that it's not quite clear whose it is. And so sometimes I think it feels neglected for that reason because no one quite takes ownership over it.

[00:45:29] Which is why I think verge gardening is great because maybe you previously thought, oh, well this is just this place that the council owns, however, it's your responsibility to mow it, right? Because it's the nature, the nature strip in front of your property is owned by the council. It's not your property, but it is your responsibility to mow it so you have a responsibility to it.

[00:45:46] And so I think it's great to see that sort of dynamic being flipped when people are activating it in a way that they want to activate it through, through plants or through planting in general. So, yeah, it's, it, it, yeah. Threshold and liminal spaces are almost what you make of it, right? It almost comes down to personal perception of what is and isn't.

[00:46:06] Yeah. 

[00:46:07] Ilana Razbash: But they're very important for a quality of life.

[00:46:10] Rachel Iampolski: Oh, hugely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's mostly what you're experiencing when you're in the public realm. So much of what you experience when you're out walking about is a liminal spaces and threshold spaces. And there's so much untapped potential in them as well.

[00:46:24] I think they're, they're really neglected often from, from a government lens, from a design lens, and from a civic lens, from citizen lens. And so that's what I'm saying. It's great to see when citizens respond to that lack of thought. By, by, you know, just claiming it and doing something with it i.e. a verge garden.

[00:46:40] So, yeah, I think there's loads of potential there from all actors to do more with them. Yeah. 

[00:46:46] Ilana Razbash: And, and sometimes doing something joyous and exciting and, 

[00:46:49] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm. 

[00:46:49] Ilana Razbash: A bit silly. I remember. During the lockdowns, the wooden spoons. 

[00:46:53] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:46:53] Ilana Razbash: The spoon villages everywhere. 

[00:46:55] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. And it's sort, it's sort of like people are like, oh, wait, we can, we can do fun things.

[00:46:59] We can play with space. We don't play with space here. It, it's a bit of a shame actually, but you're allowed to, and even if you're not, what's the worst that will happen? They'll take you, make you remove your spoons. I mean, do you know what I mean? So I think I, I would, yeah, if you, I would encourage anyone listening to think about ways you can play with space and, and and, and, and, but, but I, I understand the resistance.

[00:47:21] I understand when people think, oh, well I don't have authority over this space. I don't own it, et cetera, or I don't have permission, therefore I won't do anything. But I'm here to tell you, you probably have more permission than you realize. And if you don't, no, nothing's gonna happen. You'll be, 

[00:47:34] Ilana Razbash: or you can apply for it.

[00:47:35] Rachel Iampolski: Or you can apply. Yeah. If you, if you're really, you know, litigious, you can apply or you can talk to the owner of the property if it's a private property, you know, there's ways around it. But it, it, it just needs, there needs to be you know, it needs to be led by someone. It's not gonna happen on its own.

[00:47:48] So if, if you see something, you wanna do something, you wanna play with space, Just go for it. There's, there's, there's a, there's a means and if not that space, there'll be another space. But it has to be self-driven, I think is what I'm trying to say. There's not gonna be, it's, it's, it's, 

[00:48:04] Ilana Razbash: It's not gonna come to you.

[00:48:05] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Yeah. And the more it's self-driven and the more we see examples of that, positive examples and case studies, et cetera, and that then sort of ends up, goes up the chains and is seen by the local offices or the local government or state government, whoever it is, powers it, be developers, et cetera.

[00:48:24] The more that they see that it's being done and that there's a desire for it and that people are responding positive to it, the more they are likely to do it from the bottom down. And then it might eventually come to you, but nonetheless it will only come to you once there is, I think, a citizen push for it.

[00:48:38] Yeah. So we have to mobilize. 

[00:48:40] Ilana Razbash: It's showing up for what you wanna see. 

[00:48:42] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:48:42] Ilana Razbash: The urban around. 

[00:48:43] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:48:44] Ilana Razbash: Much like the path that inevitably brought you to government. 

[00:48:47] Yeah, 

[00:48:47] Rachel Iampolski: exactly. 

[00:48:48] Ilana Razbash: So what are some of the developments in the urban planning space at the moment and any ideas in urban planning, town planning 

[00:48:55] Rachel Iampolski: mm-hmm.

[00:48:55] Ilana Razbash: That you are interested in and that you think are really exciting. 

[00:48:59] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:59] Ilana Razbash: What, what's coming up on the horizon? 

[00:49:01] Rachel Iampolski: Well, that's an interesting question. I think, well, oh my gosh. Something exciting that's coming up. There's, I mean, I don't dunno if it's coming up necessarily. There's, there's, I think there's I think as a result of covid, there's definitely a lot more awareness for the quantity and quality of public spaces available to people. And, and, and just, yeah, a lot more like awareness of that and the consciousness around that is growing, I think, which is excellent. And so things like when people took over golf courses during lockdowns and tried to make it into public parks, you know, these kind of things.

[00:49:40] And and likewise, I think that message is being carried through to, to planners. So that's really exciting. So I think there's, there's a lot of progress happening there. And I think the other one is obviously the cost of living crisis is, and housing affordability crisis specifically. While in itself terrifying and, and, and, you know, horrible thing that we're going through and, and will continue for some time, unfortunately.

[00:50:07] I think it, again, has raised the question around quantity of public housing distribution and where we're putting public housing and how the quality and quantity of public housing that's being built, so I think that's exciting. And likewise, the type, the typology of housing, I think we're starting to think a lot more critically about, as partially as a result of, of the cost of the, the cost of housing crisis.

[00:50:33] And, and partially also through changing demographics and also because of a lack of space. So we're really forced to think about what does the actual family home look like now? And how can we be doing it in a way that's more efficient? Is it like, can we only think about the standard model of a standalone house with a big backyard?

[00:50:52] I mean, that's really not a thing anymore, essentially. And as, and, and in the interim, I think we had really poor design outcomes as a response to that. And now we're really starting to think about, okay, maybe the, the, the sort of standard gray townhouse isn't the best alternative either. So I think there's, we're not there yet, but I think that level of discussion at a political level, at a planning level is better than I've seen it before.

[00:51:18] So I think it's making good progress and so I think hopefully we'll see good outcomes from that as well. 

[00:51:23] Ilana Razbash: That's really exciting. Into a new era. 

[00:51:26] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, I think so. 

[00:51:27] Ilana Razbash: Especially so people. In communities can downsize and stay there. 

[00:51:32] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:51:33] Ilana Razbash: And not have to move away. 

[00:51:34] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:51:35] Ilana Razbash: Or young people can afford to stay in the area they grew up in or would want to stay in.

[00:51:39] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah, and I think the other thing that's exciting is, well, generally I think TikTok is really exciting because I go on there and I see these really interesting critical debates around planning, being talked about on viral social media like I've never seen it before, and being broken down in a really accessible way, and all of a sudden I'm going on TikTok and seeing people talk about third space, which is this, you know, I've never seen that topic talked about outside of academic spheres. 

[00:52:05] Ilana Razbash: Can you explain third space for our listeners? 

[00:52:07] Rachel Iampolski: Yes, certainly. Well well, if you go on TikTok, someone will explain to you in a matter of 30 seconds, which is amazing. But basically, third space is just a space that is neither your home or your work. So first space was your home, your third space is your work.

[00:52:19] Your, there's, you got your work is your second space. And then there was this argument this sort of came about in America in the seventies. I think that there was There needs to be a third space that people go that isn't home or work. And so people often describe things like the hairdresser, you know, the, the hairdressers, the library, the laundromat, these kind of places where you can meet and mingle without being at home or at work.

[00:52:43] And then there's, there's, according to theory, there is like seven specific criteria that have to, for it to meet a third space. But generally speaking, that's it. Right? And people are talking about this on TikTok now being like, well, why don't we have more third spaces, you know the way we design cities and the cost of rent and everything has eradicated third spaces.

[00:53:01] And these are integral to like commu, like maintaining the welfare of communities and connectivity in communities 

[00:53:07] Ilana Razbash: Living together. 

[00:53:08] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:53:09] Ilana Razbash: Being together. 

[00:53:09] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. And so all of a sudden people are talking about this, which is so exciting. And I think I think also we're seeing to a degree, a resurgence around spaces like libraries and thinking more.

[00:53:19] There was, you know, this whole fear mongering that, oh, in the, in the digital age, what, what's, what service the library's gonna have. I mean, everything's gonna be digital. We're gonna have eBooks. What, what, what the heck can libraries do? And we, everyone thought they'd die out, but they didn't. They've had a complete resurgence because we've rethought what they are beyond just a place that collects books on a shelf.

[00:53:41] And now we're thinking about them as community spaces and spaces for community services. And so you're seeing things like now councils are putting social workers into libraries, so they're there available for people that come in. They're running classes, they're study spaces. Like they've adapted in a way and, and really they're, they're functioning as third spaces, which is exciting.

[00:54:02] We're also seeing that around things like community hubs at library, at schools. Increasingly there was this push for why should schools only serve children? They should be serving the community around the children, i.e. The families. And so now you've got these hubs that exist in school that are there for the parents and have wraparound social services so you can, you know, there's, there's support social workers there.

[00:54:25] There's, you know, justice law and justice support for, for parents. You know, they run classes, whatever they, there's bookable spaces and all. They've created this infrastructure in public schools to service the community more broadly. And so I think we're starting to think about that. We're not thinking about our infrastructure in these really siloed ways.

[00:54:43] We're thinking about how can everything work in a more integrated way. And, and that's really like, we're sort of pulling on these ideas of third spaces as well, but, you know, doing it more critically I guess. So that's another exciting new sort of planning outcome, I think we're seeing more and more of, which is great.

[00:55:00] Ilana Razbash: That's what turns those buildings into places. 

[00:55:02] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. Yeah. Oh, and that's the other one. Oh, you just got me. You just reminded me. The other one is, you know, since Covid with more and more people working from home, there's obviously now this question, well, what do we need all these office towers for in the city?

[00:55:14] And so there's a lot of questions now about refurb, and that's a whole nother discussion. I mean, there's, so it's a whole detailed discussion around the pros and cons from an environmental perspective of refurbing or knocking down a building, renew, renew. But regardless, we're now forced to think about, well, what is the city, if it's not just a space for office workers to go? So, and, and what are these tall towers for? So this, there's a lot, and I think Covid really turned it all on its head and in an exciting way. Yeah, 

[00:55:41] Ilana Razbash: it's an exciting future ahead. 

[00:55:43] Rachel Iampolski: I think so, yeah, we're definitely that sort of intersection, I think. 

[00:55:46] Ilana Razbash: What's, what's the number one thing that gives you hope?

[00:55:49] Rachel Iampolski: Mm, that's a great question. I think TikTok No, I mean, all jokes aside, I mean, I'm obviously a huge TikTok fan as you know, but I think the level of critical discourse on there around these topics that it brings to light is just so exciting. And I think it's mobilizing people that were previously not, I wouldn't say checked out, but just not aware of these topics, right?

[00:56:09] Like when you mention it there, it's like, oh yeah, you're totally right. We do need more of them. But it's not that they didn't support that idea, they's just something they hadn't thought about before. And so I think TikTok is, is is bringing around this new level of consciousness around these topics.

[00:56:22] In this far away. There was never happening with other social media platforms or with YouTube. So that's really exciting. Definitely. 

[00:56:28] Ilana Razbash: And entirely public led. 

[00:56:29] Rachel Iampolski: Exactly. 

[00:56:30] Ilana Razbash: And it's a really important reminder. 

[00:56:32] Rachel Iampolski: Yeah. 

[00:56:32] Ilana Razbash: To designers, to architects, to planners, to government. 

[00:56:36] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:36] Ilana Razbash: Never underestimate the intelligence of the public.

[00:56:39] Rachel Iampolski: Definitely. Yeah. 

[00:56:39] Ilana Razbash: Because they are all over it. 

[00:56:42] Rachel Iampolski: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:56:43] Ilana Razbash: Thank you so much for tonight's conversation, Rachel. 

[00:56:46] Rachel Iampolski: Thank you. An hour flew by.

[00:56:52] OUTRO: Thanks for joining me for another evening of Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrum studio on Bunurong Country. You can replay this show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting community radio. Take care.

[00:57:15] Station ID